The Bach Cantatas

[kishnevi]

I'm now more than a quarter of the way through the Rilling cycle (up to CD 18 of 60,  through number 57 going by BWV numberings).  I've heard no bad moments so far, and some good moments,  but overall I'm finding I'm not fully enjoying it because it is (mostly) MI.  It just doesn't catch me the way that my two PI cycles (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt and Gardiner) do.  Possibly it was just Rilling's style that doesn't connect with me,  but the difference I'm hearing relates to the instrumental and vocal timbres and sonic denseness of the orchestral playing more than anything related to tempi and dynamics. 


On a totally different note,  what is the logic behind the order of BWV numbers of the cantatas.  There doesn't seem to be any consistent principle used, which bothers by the OCD part of my brain.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm now more than a quarter of the way through the Rilling cycle (up to CD 18 of 60,  through number 57 going by BWV numberings).  I've heard no bad moments so far, and some good moments,  but overall I'm finding I'm not fully enjoying it because it is (mostly) MI.  It just doesn't catch me the way that my two PI cycles (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt and Gardiner) do.  Possibly it was just Rilling's style that doesn't connect with me,  but the difference I'm hearing relates to the instrumental and vocal timbres and sonic denseness of the orchestral playing more than anything related to tempi and dynamics.

Rilling's a bit hard to categorize. He's not HIP but he's not old school, either. He's without pretense, with no ax to grind and no niches to fill. Unfortunately that's the sort of thing these days which relegates him to something along the lines of interpretive no-man's land.

I think hearing him is good foil to smaller-forces performances. It also may have helped swing later performances towards a more lyrical style of performance, as opposed to the somewhat austere style of Harnoncourt/Leonhardt. Although that may just be my lyric-loving side talking.

On a totally different note,  what is the logic behind the order of BWV numbers of the cantatas.  There doesn't seem to be any consistent principle used, which bothers by the OCD part of my brain.

Other than being broken down into sacred, secular, and spurious it's beyond me.

[jlaurson]

I'm now more than a quarter of the way through the Rilling cycle (up to CD 18 of 60,  through number 57 going by BWV numberings).  I've heard no bad moments so far, and some good moments,  but overall I'm finding I'm not fully enjoying it because it is (mostly) MI.  It just doesn't catch me the way that my two PI cycles (Leonhardt/Harnoncourt and Gardiner) do.  Possibly it was just Rilling's style that doesn't connect with me,  but the difference I'm hearing relates to the instrumental and vocal timbres and sonic denseness of the orchestral playing more than anything related to tempi and dynamics. 


On a totally different note,  what is the logic behind the order of BWV numbers of the cantatas.  There doesn't seem to be any consistent principle used, which bothers by the OCD part of my brain.

Blocks of BWV numbers were reserved for certain type of works; Sacred (1-200), Sacred (201-224), Other (Motets, Masses...), and Spurious (as mentioned above) are in different blocks... and the number of the secular cantatas follows the numbering of the Bach Edition the numbering of which was prevalent at the time.

[kishnevi]

Blocks of BWV numbers were reserved for certain type of works; Sacred (1-200), Sacred (201-224), Other (Motets, Masses...), and Spurious (as mentioned above) are in different blocks... and the number of the secular cantatas follows the numbering of the Bach Edition the numbering of which was prevalent at the time.

I understood that.  It's the order within that first block of 1-200 that confuses me.  If there is an order!  It's not organized by liturgical date,  not organized by chronology of composition, not organized by vocal and instrumental forces used.  Sometimes similar cantatas appear in a row (for instance, BWV 54-56 are all for solo voice) but other cantatas with the same characteristics are scattered about in other places (to continue the example,  cantatas for solo voice pop up in other places along the way).  If the numbering is due to the BachAusgabe,  how did the folks behind that go about assigning numbers?  Throwing darts?

[Wakefield]

I understood that.  It's the order within that first block of 1-200 that confuses me.  If there is an order!  It's not organized by liturgical date,  not organized by chronology of composition, not organized by vocal and instrumental forces used.  Sometimes similar cantatas appear in a row (for instance, BWV 54-56 are all for solo voice) but other cantatas with the same characteristics are scattered about in other places (to continue the example,  cantatas for solo voice pop up in other places along the way).  If the numbering is due to the BachAusgabe,  how did the folks behind that go about assigning numbers?  Throwing darts?

AFAIK, the cantatas were numbered according the order of their publication in the XIX Century and the BWV doesn't reflect their chronology or function (except to distinguish between sacred and secular cantatas). Obviously, some additions have been made later, but with respect of this numeration.

[Wanderer]

If the numbering is due to the BachAusgabe,  how did the folks behind that go about assigning numbers?  Throwing darts?

That's how I'd do it.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

AFAIK, the cantatas were numbered according the order of their publication in the XIX Century and the BWV doesn't reflect their chronology or function (except to distinguish between sacred and secular cantatas). Obviously, some additions have been made later, but with respect of this numeration.

I don't think it has to do with order of publication. The first piece Bach published was one of his partitas for keyboard. Yet BWV 1 is one of his sacred cantatas written in Leipzig!

[jlaurson]

I understood that.  It's the order within that first block of 1-200 that confuses me.  If there is an order!  It's not organized by liturgical date,  not organized by chronology of composition, not organized by vocal and instrumental forces used.  Sometimes similar cantatas appear in a row (for instance, BWV 54-56 are all for solo voice) but other cantatas with the same characteristics are scattered about in other places (to continue the example,  cantatas for solo voice pop up in other places along the way).  If the numbering is due to the BachAusgabe,  how did the folks behind that go about assigning numbers?  Throwing darts?

My bad: I meant the order of the SACRED Cantatas was taken from the THEN (1950) prevalent Bach Edition.

[Wakefield]

I don't think it has to do with order of publication. The first piece Bach published was one of his partitas for keyboard. Yet BWV 1 is one of his sacred cantatas written in Leipzig!

Yes, but you're talking about a different thing: The harpsichord partitas were the first work published by Bach himself. Each of the partitas was published separately and then were collected into a single volume (known as the Clavier-Übung I), around 1731. It was one of the very few Bach's works published (in a very limited edition, anyway) during his life. 

But I'm referring the order of publication during the XIX Century, after Bach's "rediscovering" by Mendelssohn and other people. That was the order of what Jens calls "the prevalent Bach edition".

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Yes, but you're talking about a different thing: The harpsichord partitas were the first work published by Bach himself. Each of the partitas was published separately and then were collected into a single volume (known as the Clavier-Übung I), around 1731. It was one of the very few Bach's works published (in a very limited edition, anyway) during his life.

Yes, this I'm aware of.  

But I'm referring the order of publication during the XIX Century, after Bach's "rediscovering" by Mendelssohn and other people. That was the order of what Jens calls "the prevalent Bach edition".

So it sounds as if "the prevalent Bach edition" was more a labor of love than a scholarly endeavor. Hence the haphazard nature of the "edition". Which takes us back to Jeffrey's comment above about "throwing darts". Guess he had it all along!

[Wakefield]

So it sounds as if "the prevalent Bach edition" was more a labor of love than a scholarly endeavor. Hence the haphazard nature of the "edition". Which takes us back to Jeffrey's comment above about "throwing darts". Guess he had it all along!

All this issue is not very clear, but I think these two links are useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_Gesellschaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Brought this over from the Brahms thread:

The sad one I like is the very early cantata Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir, BWV 131

Just heard this one and yes it's utterly heartbreaking. And the lute in the tenor aria is a wonderful touch. What color!

And early is right: apparently it's his first known cantata. Auspicious start.



[asin]B00002ZZ57[/asin]

[Dancing Divertimentian]

All this issue is not very clear, but I think these two links are useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_Gesellschaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis

Thanks Gordo. Useful indeed.

[milk]

This looks extremely tempting. This is BWV 110, 151, and 63. Of these, I have Kuijken's 151. But I don't know the other cantatas.

[Marc]

This looks extremely tempting. This is BWV 110, 151, and 63. Of these, I have Kuijken's 151. But I don't know the other cantatas.

Dunno this particular disc (yet), but all the Bach/Pierlot discs I have are utterly satisfying. Hence, I dare say: recommended.

[milk]

Dunno this particular disc (yet), but all the Bach/Pierlot discs I have are utterly satisfying. Hence, I dare say: recommended.

Right. And I believe they're OVPP.

[jlaurson]

This looks extremely tempting. This is BWV 110, 151, and 63. Of these, I have Kuijken's 151. But I don't know the other cantatas.

Yes, just listened to it, and it is gorgeous. Keohane's contribution especially.

[Brian]

I don't own and have never heard a single Bach cantata, but it's one of those things where, for a while now, I know an in-depth encounter is coming soon. And now my father got me John Eliot Gardiner's new book Bach for Christmas. So... with the cantatas... where and how do I start? What shopping ought I to do?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I don't own and have never heard a single Bach cantata, but it's one of those things where, for a while now, I know an in-depth encounter is coming soon. And now my father got me John Eliot Gardiner's new book Bach for Christmas. So... with the cantatas... where and how do I start? What shopping ought I to do?

Many of Herreweghe's recordings have been rounded up and reissued as cheap-ish three-fers, like the one below. Other three-fers have appeared at BRO for pretty cheap.

This might be a good start (and *Herreweghe rocks*).



[asin]B003122HDC[/asin]

[knight66]

Whatever you do first off, I suggest you do not buy a full set, even though it may be tempting. In part it will depend on whether you want HIP, or can take to the older performances. I like both and have collected a bit over half the cantatas, many of the best in duplicate or triplicate. I started with the famous solo voice ones.

Much as I do enjoy the newer Gardiner cycle, none of his performances would come with me onto a desert island.

I think it is a journey to take slowly and I hope you get the kind of life enhancement from the pieces that I have.

Mike