The Bach Cantatas

[Octave]

Is there a retailer recommendation for best prices on Accent label gear?  Specifically those Kuijken discs.  I did some sampling and I think I need them, but the cost is a little imposing.
</vulgar bargain inquiry>

[torut]

No preference.

That's nice. 


Thank you all for your recommendation. So far, I purchased Herreweghe (he recorded only two Secular Cantatas?) and Koopman (seems the only one who recorded complete Secular Cantatas among the recommended). Leonhardt's disc is a little too expensive.  Although I was just looking for alternative Secular Cantatas recordings, now I am very interested in Kuijken's Church Cantatas. (Thank you for the links to reviews, jlaurson.) Kuijken didn't record any Secular Cantatas, right?

[North Star]

That's nice. 


Thank you all for your recommendation. So far, I purchased Herreweghe (he recorded only two Secular Cantatas?) and Koopman (seems the only one who recorded complete Secular Cantatas among the recommended). Leonhardt's disc is a little too expensive.  Although I was just looking for alternative Secular Cantatas recordings, now I am very interested in Kuijken's Church Cantatas. (Thank you for the links to reviews, jlaurson.) Kuijken didn't record any Secular Cantatas, right?

Leonhardt's recording is certainly affordable as a part of this box set which has includes some brilliant solo discs of Leonhardt as well. (the original booklets are available as PDFs at Outhere's website)
[asin]B007NM8DB6[/asin]

[Octave]

By coincidence I was just rummaging for this Leonhardt box, as I purchased it nine months ago, listened with great interest to his solo Byrd disc and apparently shelved the rest, unheard.   

Also, it's a coincidence that Torut expressed dissatisfaction with (esp.) the solo voices on Scheier's secular cantatas recordings, because around that very day I was listening to those recordings (from the Brilliant megabox) and liking the music very much, but after I made mention of "liking" the recordings (Listening thread), the same quality in the voices (vibrato, mainly?) began to wear on me.  (I think it was mainly Edith Mathis?) 
I have to agree that I'd prefer a different style of singing.  All this had been turning over in my mind before I even saw the conversation on sec. cantatas from the past few pages, just now.

I'm going to listen to that Leonhardt, a Linde Consort disc (Peasant/Wedding), and the aforementioned Herreweghe this week.

Divertimentarian: not the least bit to second-guess you on your appreciation (a couple of pages ago) of that MAK/Schafer disc, but upon seeing it mentioned I was immediately reminded how taken aback I was by Amazon customer-reviewer 'Giordano Bruno''s attack on this recording.  In part:

The second mystery is why anybody ever supposed that Christine Schäfer was a concert-worthy singer, compounded by the wonderment of why Reinhard Goebel would have collaborated with her on his only recording of Bach cantatas! She's awful! Her voice is wiry and uneven, her tuning is iffy, and her vibrato is scary! Her recording of Mozart arias isn't a whit better, and her performance on DVD as Lulu in Berg's opera is just plain nasty. If Ms Schäfer weren't already rather inexplicably well known, I'd advise her not to give up her day job.

I've not heard her Bach or her Berg, but I thought her Schoenberg PIERROT (w/Boulez) and Schubert WINTERREISE were both rather distinctive....in fact I liked her voice very much in those.  I cannot imagine you'd lose much sleep over an Amazon customer review, but are these comments really off the mark?

[North Star]

I cannot imagine you'd lose much sleep over an Amazon hobbyist review, but are these comments really off the mark?

Hobbyist? I thought he's a retired cornett player, unless he has made that up (which is very unlikely to say the least, considering how knowledgeable he is).
Or do you mean that he isn't a professional reviewer?  0:)

[Octave]

Actually, I meant to simply write 'Amazon customer review' as a description; for whatever reason, the more polemical term slipped in, actually from something else I was writing elsewhere, completely unrelated.

Speaking of Giordano Bruno, though: one Bay Area early music bulletin referred to him (not critically) as an 'amateur', so 'hobbyist' might not strictly be incorrect.  He's referred to himself as a 'scholar' and 'performer' repeatedly; I'd be curious to see his CV so I could read scholarly writing of his that is not on Amazon.  Or hear examples of his playing on recordings by early music ensembles of repute.  It sounds like he has ties to Chanticleer.  Maybe he's played on their records?

[catastrophically and multiply edited, it's hopeless]

[Sammy]

Divertimentarian: not the least bit to second-guess you on your appreciation (a couple of pages ago) of that MAK/Schafer disc, but upon seeing it mentioned I was immediately reminded how taken aback I was by Amazon customer-reviewer 'Giordano Bruno''s attack on this recording.  In part:
I've not heard her Bach or her Berg, but I thought her Schoenberg PIERROT (w/Boulez) and Schubert WINTERREISE were both rather distinctive....in fact I liked her voice very much in those.  I cannot imagine you'd lose much sleep over an Amazon customer review, but are these comments really off the mark?

I think Bruno is on target.  "Awful" is a strong word to use concerning Schafer's performance, but I sure didn't like it at all - no tonal beauty and minimal vulnerability.  She sinks the entire enterprise. 

Should add that I've read a couple of "professional" reviews that praise Schafer's contributions. 

[North Star]

I'd be curious to see his CV so I could read scholarly writing of his that is not on Amazon.  Or hear examples of his playing on recordings by early music ensembles of repute.  It sounds like he has ties to Chanticleer.  Maybe he's played on their records?

See here:

I have some insider's knowledge here; the founder of Chanticleer, Louis Botto, was a friend and colleague, I was a member of the Chanticleer board of directors in its early years, and I'm proud to be a patron still.

[The new erato]

Should add that I've read a couple of "professional" reviews that praise Schafer's contributions.

Word of caution (which you surely are aware of): Professional usually means "don't forget our advertisers! And don't spend too much time listening, we pay you to produce copy, not to think!"

[Marc]

Word of caution (which you surely are aware of): Professional usually means "don't forget out advertisers! And dont't spend too much time listening, we pay you to produce copy, not to think!"

I'm afraid though that kissing the advertisers' asses is the only way (if not the last straw) for the 'professional' magazines to survive.

Oh, and thread duty: Herreweghe remains my favourite Bach Cantata Man.
But there's plenty to enjoy in this field, mainly because of the constant high level of Bach's music. Even his 'lesser' cantatas are worthwhile exploring.

[Marc]

Of course we all have our personal preferences, but I found this old post by Clever Hans, with whom I very much agree. Maybe it's helpful for torut in his search for recommendations:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,117.msg568199

[DavidW]

The only reason he's further down on my list is because I prefer HIP. 

Same for me.  IMO Bach would kill to have his music performed like any of the conductors and ensembles we've mentioned have been.  We are truly luck to have choice between several polished ensembles for the complete cycle.  Whether it be Suzuki, Gardiner, Rilling, Koopman it is a question of interpretation and not objective quality.

Of course I'm in a good mood because I started the day with Suzuki performing the Easter Oratorio.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Divertimentarian: not the least bit to second-guess you on your appreciation (a couple of pages ago) of that MAK/Schafer disc, but upon seeing it mentioned I was immediately reminded how taken aback I was by Amazon customer-reviewer 'Giordano Bruno''s attack on this recording.  In part:
I've not heard her Bach or her Berg, but I thought her Schoenberg PIERROT (w/Boulez) and Schubert WINTERREISE were both rather distinctive....in fact I liked her voice very much in those.  I cannot imagine you'd lose much sleep over an Amazon customer review, but are these comments really off the mark?

That's a bit of a tough question to answer, Octave. As I read it Mr. Bruno's attack on Schäfer seems motivated more by his all-around dislike for her than any specific defect in this particular recording. He's just mapping his overall dislike for her onto whatever recording of hers that just happens to be in his way at the time.

I guess that's valid but for me I just try my best to avoid those things I actively dislike. 

It's interesting that his Amazon review is flanked by comments that generally are more enthusiastic about this disc so if I were to add a review I'd be more inclined to join the group giving positive endorsements.

Classics Today's review is more positive as well and The Penguin Guide says about Schäfer "...she is in radiant voice and delights us with her beauty of tone and virtuosity." (2003/2004 edition, p.81, referring to this disc).

All that said it's probably easier to climb Mt. Everest barefoot than it is to dislodge prejudices when it comes to a man's choice in singers.

   

[Dancing Divertimentian]

So far, I purchased Herreweghe (he recorded only two Secular Cantatas?)

That's all I know of.

[torut]

That's all I know of.

Thank you.
I listened to Herreweghe twice so far, and it's so refreshing and beautiful. Also I listened to some of cantatas from Koopman's set, which are also good: smooth & light. I liked the singing of the soloists, very clean. I am going to get all Secular Cantatas by Koopman, and add some individual cantatas by others.

[Wakefield]

I think Bruno is on target.  "Awful" is a strong word to use concerning Schafer's performance, but I sure didn't like it at all - no tonal beauty and minimal vulnerability.  She sinks the entire enterprise. 

Should add that I've read a couple of "professional" reviews that praise Schafer's contributions.

I'm interested in your opinion about this, Don: when a review (or a reviewer) qualifies as "professional"? Is a payment necessary in order to be a "professional"?

Or are you being simply ironic? 

For instance, I think Jens has expressed several times a negative opinion on the "amateurs" reviewers ("if you pay peanuts..."); but I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

[torut]

Of course we all have our personal preferences, but I found this old post by Clever Hans, with whom I very much agree. Maybe it's helpful for torut in his search for recommendations:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,117.msg568199

Thank you for the link. I saw you agreed with him 4 times in a post.  Unfortunately, the second youtube link is no longer available.
I agree with him about Koopman.

[Sammy]

I'm interested in your opinion about this, Don: when a review (or a reviewer) qualifies as "professional"? Is a payment necessary in order to be a "professional"?

Or are you being simply ironic? 

For instance, I think Jens has expressed several times a negative opinion on the "amateurs" reviewers ("if you pay peanuts..."); but I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

The subject concerned a review from an Amazon customer.  An Amazon review can range from poor to excellent, but it's basically a "care-free" review.  With very little exception, there are   no standards to meet; there are also no job requirements.

The reviews I referred to come from MusicWeb and Fanfare.  Those reviewers have a job to do with deadlines to meet; they have responsibilities.  There are also payments made; payment in plastic isn't much but quite an improvement over nothing.

[jlaurson]

The reviews I referred to come from MusicWeb and Fanfare.  Those reviewers have a job to do with deadlines to meet; they have responsibilities.  There are also payments made; payment in plastic isn't much but quite an improvement over nothing.

It's not an improvement, necessarily. It makes it worse, often. Now they're beholden but still unpaid... and sometimes the independence asserts itself in near-comical take-downs. There are critics worth their salt at Fanfare, but amidst a erhemm... 'versatile' crowd. At least Amazon reviewers, IF they have actually purchased a product, have invested in it and are at liberty (beyond psychological effects) to write about it as they feel...

[Sammy]

It's not an improvement, necessarily. It makes it worse, often. Now they're beholden but still unpaid... and sometimes the independence asserts itself in near-comical take-downs. There are critics worth their salt at Fanfare, but amidst a erhemm... 'versatile' crowd. At least Amazon reviewers, IF they have actually purchased a product, have invested in it and are at liberty (beyond psychological effects) to write about it as they feel...

I don't go for the designation of "Amazon reviewers", preferring Amazon customers without responsibilities.