Vagn Holmboe (1909-1996)

[CaramelJones]

I feel as though the critics of Holmboe feel as though they can compare Holmboe note-for-note with a composer that they doooo like, and show the Holmboe Believers why, note-for-note, other composers consistently deliver at what Holmboe seems to endlessly tease at. Is that it?

I mean, Holmboe VS Shostakovich (for instance),... who wins? "There can be only One, Neo!" I think, IMHO, 100% on this Thread would pick DSCH over H. Overall. And be brutally honest with yourself. Personally,... I wouldn't believe you even if you DID pick H! :Phaha

Holmboe VS Sessions

Holmboe VS Hindemith

Holmboe VS Simpson (some smartass will call this a draw! )

Holmboe VS Ligeti

Holmboe VS Beethoven

Holmboe VS Mennin

Holmboe VS Krenek (ok, now, this seems like a fair fight to me, for instance)

Lol.  That's really funny 


Who is Sessions?  Does he do Out-Takes as well? 

I really like Krenek actually.  Then again, I only have a handful of his string quartets - No.s 1, 3, 5, 7.  Some one out there must have all the even numbers??     Has some one actually got a CD release of all of his string quartets, or am I just too hungry for completist-ness?

Likewise - Ligeti and Hindemith.  I only have a handful of their quartets too.   However Krenek; Ligeti and Hindemith all make a very striking impression on me: they all have their own unique language and convey this emotional intensity forthwith.

Whereas your jocular comment about picking Shostakovich over Holmboe rings true for me, I wouldn't say this holds for say, idiomatic string quartet guys like  Villa-Lobos; Ginastera, and the French guys, on one hand, or the Beethoven/Taneyev/Haydn classics on another, and on the third - the introspective and interior-focussed quartets of  Weinberg, Myaskovsky, Shebalin, Meyer, Lajtha, Dutilleux's single quartet, Hatzis or Schafer.

Maybe it just holds for Holmboe lol.



 

[Daverz]

Who is Sessions? 

Roger Sessions, I assume.

[CaramelJones]

Time Out!

Lol

[snyprrr]

idiomatic string quartet guys like  Villa-Lobos; Ginastera, and the French guys, on one hand, or the Beethoven/Taneyev/Haydn classics on another, and on the third - the introspective and interior-focussed quartets of  Weinberg, Myaskovsky, Shebalin, Meyer, Lajtha, Dutilleux's single quartet, Hatzis or Schafer.

Holmboe VS Myaskovsky

No, seriously, I felt guilty for writing that earlier. I know better than to say "You Suck!" to Holmboe: I can sense his craftmanship in all I've heard, but, herein is where I find my answer. Your list above contains a nice swathe of, may I say, perhaps, like minded composers. Whether you "like" them or not may depend on this or that, but you can always "respect" them for their craftsmanship. For me, Myaskovsky and Holmboe both have both been hailed as the One (at one time or another), only for me to have spent $$$ galore on expensive Russian or Swedish cds (see my BIS rant!) on a quest to find some Grailish experience.

The perfect example would be Myaskovsky's Cello Concerto

ok, I know I'm on the losing side of the argument, and I'm going to bed. May I one day find some Holmboe I like!

[Lethevich]

I can't think of much that is stylistically comparable between the two, tbh.

What I admire for Holmboe most is his fusing of the elemental power possible with orchestral writing (which has been especially tapped into by other Nordic composers), but in an un-Romantic context. In his late symphonies (No.10+) his style becomes even more crystalised - they shorten, further more rhetorical gestures are eliminated. The "craftsmanship" element is a factor, but not in the negative sense - the music feels exceptionally stimulating because it has been pared back so much, and yet they miraculously still retain the vital spark of nature which is present throughout Holmboe's music, albeit often in an unconventional, un-signposted manner.

His quartets as a cycle are not as memorable as the symphonies, but I am surprised that several people have managed to outright not enjoy them. I find his cycle comparable to Dvořák in status - there is a lot of good music there, but it's simultaneously not top-tier, and yet too consistently good to dismiss. The latter makes picking favourites quite a challenge as it needs either serious focus/repeated listen, or an especial affinity for the style.

[vandermolen]

I can't think of much that is stylistically comparable between the two, tbh.

What I admire for Holmboe most is his fusing of the elemental power possible with orchestral writing (which has been especially tapped into by other Nordic composers), but in an un-Romantic context. In his late symphonies (No.10+) his style becomes even more crystalised - they shorten, further more rhetorical gestures are eliminated. The "craftsmanship" element is a factor, but not in the negative sense - the music feels exceptionally stimulating because it has been pared back so much, and yet they miraculously still retain the vital spark of nature which is present throughout Holmboe's music, albeit often in an unconventional, un-signposted manner.

His quartets as a cycle are not as memorable as the symphonies, but I am surprised that several people have managed to outright not enjoy them. I find his cycle comparable to Dvořák in status - there is a lot of good music there, but it's simultaneously not top-tier, and yet too consistently good to dismiss. The latter makes picking favourites quite a challenge as it needs either serious focus/repeated listen, or an especial affinity for the style.

Very much agree with this view of the symphonies - don't know the SQs.

[vandermolen]

Just been listening to Vagn Holmboe's Cello Concerto - what a fine work.

[Lethevich]

Is that one of the chamber concertos re-named? I noticed hints in the literature that the name "chamber concertos" are gradually being phased out in his output in place of more typical ones describing the forces involved.

Edit: I checked the list of forces for the chamber concertos - disregard that, there's none for cello and orchestra.

This seems a good time to mention I've been exploring much of the composer's output recently, as have others on the forum. Holmboe is a rather unassuming figure - generally lumped into a group of 20th century tonal 'regressives', but while I love those other composers, Holmboe seems to be one of the few who composes to a system and strict aesthetic and as such is appears more radical than his stablemates, yet is generally overlooked by everybody other than those interested in composers who continued the symphonic tradition into the late 20th century. It produces wonderful results, and despite the daunting size of his output I have yet to find anything weak, or even average.

His concerto for violin, viola and orchestra (Chamber Concerto No.9) is a nice find, it seems to sum up a lot about his manner - wild, slightly astringent, with interesting folk-oriented tonality occasionally showing its head, but always subservient to the almost neoclassical manner.

[karlhenning]

This seems a good time to mention I've been exploring much of the composer's output recently, as have others on the forum. Holmboe is a rather unassuming figure - generally lumped into a group of 20th century tonal 'regressives', but while I love those other composers, Holmboe seems to be one of the few who composes to a system and strict aesthetic and as such is appears more radical than his stablemates, yet is generally overlooked by everybody other than those interested in composers who continued the symphonic tradition into the late 20th century. It produces wonderful results, and despite the daunting size of his output I have yet to find anything weak, or even average.

His concerto for violin, viola and orchestra (Chamber Concerto No.9) is a nice find, it seems to sum up a lot about his manner - wild, slightly astringent, with interesting folk-oriented tonality occasionally showing its head, but always subservient to the almost neoclassical manner.

And, carrying these over from the WAYLT? thread:

Yes, I suppose you are right, but as I may have told you before (or not), that I have listened to Holmboe for a year or so and I'm still not feeling the music at all.

The first time I 'felt' Holmboe's music was with his Symphony No. 7. Because of a recent Holmboe love fest here, I downloaded Symphony No. 10, which I'll listen to when I'm in the mood... But I must say - I have had my difficulties, too. And I'm still not quite sure I'll ever like him as much as, say, RVW, Nielsen, or even Simpson.

That is a shame - mature Holmboe does seem to be a quite ascetic experience, and your comparison with Simpson (often criticised as dry) is enlightening as it makes me realise that if I didn't connect to certain key elements of Holmboe's tonality* I would perhaps feel the same way. As much as Simpson avoids explicit pictorial programmes in his music, the energy more than makes up for this and creates something dynamic and engaging - not entirely as his reputation would suggest. Cosier symphonists like RVW will always remain closest to my heart, though.

*I find his metamorphosing method a great solution to the problems of the difficulties of writing such large statements, but it's mostly his superb writing for individual instruments and their elemental interactions. His slightly pungent brass - almost mimicking chorales in a pointillist manner at times - and woodwinds in particular are wonderful stamps of personality on his works regardless of mood, and often lend his pieces a curious nobility.

When I was in high school, and particularly when taking part in one of the Region or All-State Bands, there was the occasional 20^th-century concert work (sounds a little funny, since practically all of the band literature is of the 20^th century), pieces like Peter Mennin's Canzona and the Hindemith Symphony in B^b, which really crashed onto my ears like a fresh sea breeze, and I had a visceral feeling of This is the kind of music I've been waiting for.  Of course, I wound up having the same feeling, only a degree or two more intense, when later my ears were exposed to (e.g.) Stravinsky — but my point here is that, irrationally (if you like), I enjoy much the same resonant combination of sonic ergonomics and musical excitement with practically all the Holmboe I hear.

[rw1883]

I contacted DaCapo and found out that the Chamber Concerti will be released as a box set in October or November.  This should be a great buy as I never bought the individual releases.

[karlhenning]

I contacted DaCapo and found out that the Chamber Concerti will be released as a box set in October or November.  This should be a great buy as I never bought the individual releases.

Thanks for the word!  I'll certainly snap that box up.

[CRCulver]

Fans of Holmboe might enjoy reading Poul Nielsen's old article "Some Comments on Vagn Holmboe's Ideas of Metamorphosis" (which I believe I got from JSTOR). Nielsen encourages people to be sceptical about composers' self-theories, and he analyses the Symphony No. 8 and other works to show that Holmboe's "metamorphosis" principle is really just common Late Romantic tonality, not some bold new discovery unique to the composer.

Of course, I love Holmboe nonetheless, but this article deflates some of the mythology that has grown up around his output from 1950–1970.

[Karl Henning]

I think "sceptical" is the wrong word, though.

[Lethevich]

Though the composers in question have a natural desire to perhaps over-sell their 'discovery', I do find personal descriptions of any process to be useful. Even if it's, say, 70% derivative, its concentration in their application of it is notable in itself.

A lack of JSTOR access is one of the more frustrating things to a fan of the classical byways -_-

[Karl Henning]

I contacted DaCapo and found out that the Chamber Concerti will be released as a box set in October or November.  This should be a great buy as I never bought the individual releases.

Ну?

[Madiel]

I contacted DaCapo and found out that the Chamber Concerti will be released as a box set in October or November.  This should be a great buy as I never bought the individual releases.

Would be pleased if this were true, but not seen any sign of it yet.

From what little I've heard/read, BIS may have the edge over Da Capo in the works they've recorded, but they haven't recorded them all.

[Madiel]

By the way, people who are sufficiently interested to read this thread may also be interested to know that Wikipedia now has a list of Holmboe's compositions.

I put it together a couple of months ago because I was so frustrated at not being able to FIND a list.  It's not 100% complete but not too far off it, I think.  I need to get a hold of the 1996 version of the catalogue printed by his publishers.  There's a copy in a library in California...

[Lethevich]

By the way, people who are sufficiently interested to read this thread may also be interested to know that Wikipedia now has a list of Holmboe's compositions.

I put it together a couple of months ago because I was so frustrated at not being able to FIND a list.  It's not 100% complete but not too far off it, I think.  I need to get a hold of the 1996 version of the catalogue printed by his publishers.  There's a copy in a library in California...

Thank you! I have been intrigued about this, but was unwilling to pay a fortune for the catalogue of them.

Direct link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Vagn_Holmboe

[Madiel]

Excuse me while I do a running commentary, but...

I'm listening to Symphony No. 9 right now, which has always seemed to me one of the most difficult to get into, and it seems that at least two reviewers have thought the same thing. I've probably listened to it the least out of any in the box set, except maybe No.13.

Yesterday I tried listening to the 5 movements separately. And the 1st movement worked for me, but the next two really didn't do a lot.  The 2nd is a very, very quite 'intermezzo', and frankly sounds like not a lot happens.  The 3rd is the loudest and most furious, but didn't feel like it quite had the level of structure I expect from Holmboe, especially not the first half of it.

Well, today (right now) I'm listening to the symphony in complete form again, and the difference is astonishing. My ear immediately picked up that the 2nd movement has a figure taken from the end of the 1st movement.  It turns the whole intermezzo into a ghostly echo, with the music unable to move on.  Consequently, the opening of the 3rd movement sounded totally appropriate as an onrush of sound, as if the music is catching up having lost the previous four minutes.

I think what I love about Holmboe is when I can hear a form evolving and changing across a work like that.

[Madiel]

Curious to know, has anyone had the chance to hear both versions of Kairos/Chairos and, if so, thoughts on the differences/which is better?

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I've heard the BIS one online.