Karajan Beethoven Sets -- Which One Shall Smite All Others Into Gooey Bits?

Started by jwinter, March 24, 2009, 12:54:04 PM

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You want a set of Beethoven Symphonies by Karajan, eh?  So which one, smarty pants?

CD - EMI Philharmonia (1950s)
4 (8%)
CD - DG BPO (1960s)
27 (54%)
CD - DG BPO (1970s)
18 (36%)
CD - DG BPO (1980s)
2 (4%)
DVD - Sony/Unitel BPO
1 (2%)
DVD - DG BPO
1 (2%)
Pick single discs amongst 'em, no sets for me!
6 (12%)
Banana
10 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 50

jwinter

Ask and ye shall receive!   ;D  Appended below are a few posts from today's WAYLT thread, discussing Karajan's various Beethoven cycles (sorry if I missed anyone).  Let the bickering begin....   8)


Quote from: Renfield on March 24, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
Re Karajan,

To use a rather un-British exclamation: whoa! I step away from the computer for a few hours, and everything goes Karajan. :o

Two things:


1) Regarding Karajan's Beethoven cycles, I only counted (and count, in general, when asked questions like these) CD releases.

If I were to also count DVD releases, I am fairly certain that at least some of the Unitel performances (viz. at least the 5th and 9th) are live, and unique to their video version, as far as official release is concerned; ditto for one of the two 9ths on video from the 1980s.

All in all, there are four - three on DG, one on EMI - integral cycles of the Beethoven symphonies on CD by Karajan, to spell out my answer fully.


2) On Karajan's Beethoven (cf. "Beethoven cycles"), on the other hand, I didn't think the level of specificity required was that which you lot seemed to go into after I left the conversation! And I still don't think it's the right thread for it.

If someone (I could do it if you wanted) made "Karajan Beethoven" thread, I'd be delighted to offer more than a 'context-conditional' sketch of what I think about his cycles, like I did above; likewise for the others who have opinions on Karajan's Beethoven, so we can actually discuss them in a less fleeting and 'by the way' context than the Listening thread. If nothing else, this is a lot of versions we're comparing!


Quote from: jlaurson on March 24, 2009, 11:23:53 AM
I think I said the relevant bits here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=433.

I don't have the complete 4th cycle--and the three discs of it that I do have (1/2, 5/6, 9)--didn't leave much of an impression beyond what I state in the above:

The Philharmonia cycle I've not heard. I'm not terribly keen on trying it out, I should admit, because often I don't find early recordings all that interesting... Then again: Maybe I should... after all Karajan/Philharmonia are responsible for THIS Till Eulenspiegel.

I was VERY happily surprised by the Third cycle, which I had never considered until it was sent to me. Since I consider the second cycle ('66) a "standard" (which means "very good" but it also means "replaceable" with another excellent set), but the third one of great character, I'd probably recommend the latter over the former to anyone who already has an acceptable first and/or second cycle.

I'd certainly not like to part with it... but if I were left with only three cycles, I'm not sure if it would be among them.  The only one that I'd surely keep is Barenboim... and once my Vanska cycle is complete (I'm still lacking the 9th), that'd be up there, too... though I await P.Jaervi and T.Dausgaard to see if they can improve, further. I guess my foil would be Gardiner, whose Eroica was my touchstone until P.Jaervi came along.

Quote from: jwinter on March 24, 2009, 10:50:19 AM
I think you may be right about the 5 cycles -- not sure about the DG DVD, I know the Sony DVD is the 80s DG CD set. 

But I have to say, owning all 4 cycles on CD, I think Karajan's approach to Beethoven was fairly consistent over the years, so I couldn't recommend getting all of them unless to a serious collector (which many of us are, I know -- I was for a long while, though not as much anymore).  Hindsight being 20/20, I'd have been much better served years ago by picking up other interpretations of Beethoven (or indeed of something else entirely) rather than all of that Karajan, and if somebody snuck into my house tonight and purloined 3 of my sets, leaving me with either the 60s or 70s one, I don't know that I'd bother to replace any of the others.  If I had to make a Karajan Beethoven recommendation today, I'd say get the SACD 60s set, with perhaps the remastered double of 5, 6 & 9 from the 70s set as a supplement (all three being improvements, particularly the 6th -- the Penguin Guide was right in pointing out that it was a shrewdly chosen 2-fer).


Quote from: premont on March 24, 2009, 10:22:06 AM
Ok, as I thought one must have all Karajan cycles. Am I wrong in thinking there are five?
1) EMI 1950es with Philharmonia
2) DG 1962 BPO
3) DG 1977 BPO
4) DG 1980es BPO
5) I have some idea of a DVD set, different from the CD sets.

PS: I never favored (American spelling, I know) the sound of the BPO, - it is in my opinion too string and especially too bass-heavy. Still I get some enjoyment from Cluytens Beethoven cycle from the late 1950es, before the orchestra became heavily Karajanized.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Renfield

Argh! Just as I made this thread. ;D

Merge, or keep them both for the sake of seeing what comes of the poll? :) (Since the other thread isn't just for the Beethoven, but can accommodate all the "how's Karajan's Bruckner/Tchaikovsky/Webern/Franck?" questions too, and still more.)

premont

Thanks, JWinter for starting this thread. I shall observe the events carefully. My actual point of view (first and foremost prompted by you and Jens) is to acquire the 1962 set and then - having listened to this - decide if I want to waste more of my savings on Karajan.
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George

Thanks J, you saved me some typing, as I had stopped by this board to start this very thread.  :)

I just got the 1970s HvK set, so now I have even more motivation to get to listening it.  :) I also have the 1963 set, which I admire for it's rawness and ferocity.

jwinter

Quote from: Renfield on March 24, 2009, 12:57:17 PM
Argh! Just as I made this thread. ;D

Merge, or keep them both for the sake of seeing what comes of the poll? :) (Since the other thread isn't just for the Beethoven, but can accommodate all the "how's Karajan's Bruckner/Tchaikovsky/Webern/Franck?" questions too, and still more.)

Sorry about that!  Yours must have come up as I was creating this one.  I'd say keep them both, as Karajan recorded everything under the sun.  This thread's pretty specific.  :)
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

premont

Quote from: George on March 24, 2009, 02:04:04 PM
I also have the 1963 set, which I admire for it's rawness and ferocity.

Ferocity? How does it compare to Toscanini and Harnoncourt?
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jwinter

In the other thread:

Quote from: Herman on March 24, 2009, 01:31:21 PM
...Part of the Karajan fan psychosis is wanting to start your own daily Karajan threads, ideally about which one of his Beethoven iterations is best / the greatest / your favorite.

I agree that Karajan fandom can verge on the psychotic.  However, I see the point of this thread as running almost counter to that.  Surely no sane person needs all of Karajan's Beethoven recordings -- they are literally legion.  So, here we can apply a critical eye, and hopefully separate the wheat from the chaff in the area where his recordings are most duplicative, and thereby potentially most confusing for the newbie (or even not-so-newbie). 

Like him or loathe him, Karajan is widely acknowledged as a "Great Beethoven Conductor".  Is he?  Why or why not?  I'd love to get into that here.  I'd also love to see some discussion beyond my first, practical question:  if one is trying to put together a representative collection of Beethoven recordings, does Karajan need to be there?  And if so, which recordings?
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

George

Quote from: premont on March 24, 2009, 02:53:41 PM
Ferocity? How does it compare to Toscanini and Harnoncourt?

Haven't heard Harnoncourt, but HvK's LvB is different from the Toscanini for sure. Tempos are not as fast and when things heat up, the BPO sounds like they are at the brink of control (even boiling over a bit at times), with Toscanini the orchestra always sounds well in control when playing more intense passages. HvK's 63 cycle is less refined, more "rough around the edges" than Toscanini's. I usually like my Beethoven in this manner. Don't get me wrong, I also like Toscanini's cycle, but for very different reasons.

Renfield

Quote from: jwinter on March 24, 2009, 03:02:14 PM
I'd also love to see some discussion beyond my first, practical question:  if one is trying to put together a representative collection of Beethoven recordings, does Karajan need to be there?  And if so, which recordings?

That is an interesting question! To begin with, for instance, I'm aware that Karajan did the whole 1963 cycle with Toscanini as reference, to the point of playing back the latter's last recording of the 9th in the control room as Karajan himself was recording it, to make sure he got it right.

This partly answers premont's question: The 1963 cycle was essentially Toscanini through the Karajan/Berliner prism. And that's where a very interesting distinction exists between that and his earlier and later efforts. The Pastoral would probably never misfire in Karajan's hands as it did in 1963, if he weren't so desperately trying to modernise it (through the Toscanini prism, to invert my metaphor above). :)

imperfection

I like the 1970s cycle a lot. It has so much energy and power (typically HvK) but the expressive nuances are also in the right place, and the huge, rich sound of the BPO doesn't throw the music off its classical proportions (especially in the earlier works) either. HvK just has the knack for LvB's symphonies, he knows how they should sound.

LouisLee

Honest speaking, Karajan's Beethoven isn't my cup of tea. Willem Mengelberg & Felix Weingartner's No. 1-9, Bruno Walter's 1-8, Kabasta's Eroica are my favourite versions.

jwinter

Quote from: jwinter on March 24, 2009, 03:02:14 PM
... if one is trying to put together a representative collection of Beethoven recordings, does Karajan need to be there?

Despite the tongue-in-cheek title, I really don't want this to be a "let's all worship Karajan" thread.  So I suppose I should offer my own answer to this question.  And for me, the answer is...

No.

He certainly can be there, but he's not indispensible.  No one is.  I think, if you really want to get a representative sampling of Beethoven symphony recordings, you need to spread the wealth.  You need recordings from several different categories -- whether we're talking individual CDs or whole sets depends on your budget and your taste for Beethoven.  But, IMO, you need to hear all of the following broad types at some point.

A few caveats.  These are very broad categories; they represent roughly how I might pigeon-hole a recording at first glance.  Many of them can overlap, and a conductor may fall into more than one category.  You could apply the same categories, in most respects, to Mozart, Haydn, Schubert etc,  My examples are meant to illustrate the category, not imply that these are the only or best way to go.

HIP, period instruments.  Like 'em or loathe 'em, they present Beethoven in a very different light, and ought to be at least explored.  I think Hogwood or Gardiner are good, safe choices, but there are many good options.

HIP-influenced, modern instruments.  Recent Abbado for example, or Zinman.  There has been a lot of interesting scholarship on Beethoven scores in the past few years, and it's always good to hear current thoughts, usually in SOTA sound to boot.

Old-school Germanic.  This is where Karajan fits, but there are many other options, too many to list.  I think everyone needs a set by one of the great German or Austrian orchestras -- Berlin, Vienna, or Dresden.  

A bit of flavor.  Try something from a distinctly non-Germanic source.  If you want something safe, perhaps a US or UK orchestra for something close to home.  Or branch out and hear how Beethoven sounds done in a Russian style, or Czech, or French.  You'll often need to find older recordings to really hear the authentic local styles -- like so much these days, many individual orchestral traditions seem to be dying out.

Historic.  Try something by Furtwangler or Toscanini to see what the shouting's about.  Weingartner, Scherchen, Bruno Walter, lots of possibilities.

So, for example, if someone had Hogwood, Abbado (I like the DVDs from Rome), Karajan 77, Kletzki / Czech PO, and Furtwangler, I'd say that they've got a very nice Beethoven collection, that covers lots of bases and will provide many years of enjoyment.  I'd say the same thing about someone who had Gardiner, Zinman, Bohm, Bernstein NYPO, and Toscanini.  Or individual CDs from Savall, Vanska, Kempe, Markevitch, and Mengelberg.  You get the idea.

So, if we narrow it down to just the Old-school Germanic category -- if you're looking for the best traditional readings from Berlin, Vienna, or Dresden, is Karajan your best choice?  I'll let y'all chew on that one for a while ...  8)
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Herman

One of the reasons why these constantly reiterated Karajan LvB threads are  equally amusing and irritating is because they're basically about a no-brainer.

If you're into multiple LvB symphony sets the Karajan sixties set is one of the first ten you need.

Period. End of discussion.

Renfield

Quote from: Herman on March 25, 2009, 06:13:53 AM
One of the reasons why these constantly reiterated Karajan LvB threads are  equally amusing and irritating is because they're basically about a no-brainer.

If you're into multiple LvB symphony sets the Karajan sixties set is one of the first ten you need.

Period. End of discussion.

Implication: The other three cycles are trivial.

Period? End of discussion?

;)

premont

Quote from: Herman on March 25, 2009, 06:13:53 AM


If you're into multiple LvB symphony sets the Karajan sixties set is one of the first ten you need.

Period. End of discussion.

But why is Karajan that important? That I want to know.

Non period, evidently. Continued discussion.
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jwinter

Quote from: Herman on March 25, 2009, 06:13:53 AM
One of the reasons why these constantly reiterated Karajan LvB threads are  equally amusing and irritating is because they're basically about a no-brainer.

If you're into multiple LvB symphony sets the Karajan sixties set is one of the first ten you need.

Period. End of discussion.

True enough.  But the simple fact that they keep recurring with such frequency (which I'll grant, though I honestly don't remember the last thread devoted to Karajan's LvB recordings) is instructive.  I can tell you from personal experience that there's a substantial force -- a combination of record company PR, CD reviews, internet forums, et al -- that pushes a newbie Beethoven shopper towards that 60s Karajan set, and that the multiple iterations can lead to compulsive duplications.  I have FIVE different versions of Karajan conducting the 9th, and ya know what?  I'm not ever particularly fond of Karajan's take on the 9th.  After many years of listening, I wouldn't put ANY of them in my personal top ten.  WTF is up with that?  The only symphony where Karajan is my favorite is the 5th -- so why did I buy four complete sets?!?  Is it voodoo, or what?

Honestly, I'm not quite sure myself.  Some of it is mildly OCD collector-itis -- my first hobby from childhood was collecting comic books, which are of course numbered sequentially, so the instinct to fill in the gaps and build a complete set is deeply ingrained in me.  I see a lot of that in other folks' posts here as well -- I know I'm not alone in that boat.

So it looks like I had a couple of purposes in starting this thread.  First of all, to help folks navigate through the maze of HvK's Beethoven, and figure out what's really worth hearing.  I've heard them all, so I might as well try to put the experience to some good use.  A second purpose, I suppose, is to try to get a handle on the psychology behind the multiple-box-set-itis that plagues so many here, myself freely included, and of which Karajan's LvB is an obvious example.

Quote from: premont on March 25, 2009, 06:59:59 AM
But why is Karajan that important? That I want to know.

Non period, evidently. Continued discussion.

That's the question isn't it?  Is he really all that?  And if not, why do so many people think he is?  That's part of what I'd like to figure out.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

premont

A sane survey, JWinter. And of course all your categories are represented in my library.

The interesting point for me at the moment, is Karajans relative importance in your category Old School Germanic. You seem to think, that one do not need any of his sets, if one has got e.g. Wand, Jochum or/and Blomstedt already? Others seem to think that HvK is indispensible.

As to this and your other categories I would also like to put a broader questiony:

Which ones do you need to own (hear) because they are characteristic of the category in question, and which ones have that much individual to offer, that you must have (hear) them almost at any cost?
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jwinter

Quote from: premont on March 25, 2009, 07:14:55 AM
The interesting point for me at the moment, is Karajans relative importance in your category Old School Germanic. You seem to think, that one do not need any of his sets, if one has got e.g. Wand, Jochum or/and Blomstedt already? Others seem to think that HvK is indispensible.

I think it depends on the size and quality of the library you're trying to build.  If you are trying to keep it small and still cover all the essential bases, I think Bohm or Wand or Kempe would serve as well as Karajan as a single representative of the style.  If, on the other hand, you've been around the block, and have decided that a) you really like Beethoven, and want to explore him in depth, and b) old-school German Beethoven is the style you greatly prefer, and is where you want to focus your attention/purchases, then we get into the question of who do you need to hear to get a full representation of everything old-school German LvB has to offer?  At that point, I think you need some Karajan in the mix.  Even at that point, though, you don't need four sets.  Either the 60s or 70s set would serve the purpose.  My plan is to argue the merits of each.

If you reach the point that you do need 4 HvK sets, I think you're now collecting Karajan recordings, not Beethoven recordings; and what you're listening for is more instructive of the evolution and variation in Karajan's personal style, not necessarily of providing further insight into Beethoven's music.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and if you're somebody like M Forever who's deeply schooled in German orchestral performing traditions, that may be right up your alley.  But by that point you've entered a very narrow niche, and you don't need advice from knuckleheads like us. 

Unless you stumbled into that niche without really realizing what you were getting yourself into, like I did; in which case you can start a goofy thread like this.  It can still make for a rewarding, if confusing and in the end wastefully expensive experience.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: jwinter on March 25, 2009, 06:07:25 AM
Old-school Germanic.  This is where Karajan fits...
[/quote]

Does he? If Karajan was trying to emulate Toscanini (an Italian leading American orchestras), was he being old-school Germanic?

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

jwinter

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2009, 07:46:36 AM
Does he? If Karajan was trying to emulate Toscanini (an Italian leading American orchestras), was he being old-school Germanic?

Sarge

I think so, although he's clearly not the most typical example -- I wouldn't call Herbie a kapellemeister by any stretch.  You're right that he was trying to move to a style closer to Toscanini (and away from Furtwangler), but I see that as being more of a movement within and reaction to the tradition than a clean break from it.  Plus I think his later cycles showed the Toscanini influence to a much lesser degree. 
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice