Karajan Beethoven Sets -- Which One Shall Smite All Others Into Gooey Bits?

Started by jwinter, March 24, 2009, 12:54:04 PM

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You want a set of Beethoven Symphonies by Karajan, eh?  So which one, smarty pants?

CD - EMI Philharmonia (1950s)
4 (8%)
CD - DG BPO (1960s)
27 (54%)
CD - DG BPO (1970s)
18 (36%)
CD - DG BPO (1980s)
2 (4%)
DVD - Sony/Unitel BPO
1 (2%)
DVD - DG BPO
1 (2%)
Pick single discs amongst 'em, no sets for me!
6 (12%)
Banana
10 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Brian

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 29, 2009, 05:52:31 PM
Renfield
Looking at back of package on Amazon artwork it has been given the ART remaster treatment......just like all the GROTC series
Usually these are very good, I remember long ago comparing the Klemperer Mahler 2nd original CD to the ART remastered Great Recording of the Century version and it was very noticeable improvement......this might cost you some more money  :D
Not much. MDT has it for US $20.

Coopmv

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 29, 2009, 05:29:15 PM
Wait just a minute................



EMI has remastered and re-packaged the 1952-55 Karajan set, selling for $18 new at Amazon sellers (Caiman etc)
The newest 2009 Penguin Guide has given it a rosette and moved it to top position of complete sets for
both performance and historical significance. They especially say the sound is very good now..........

I have placed an order

I bought this set last year ...

Renfield

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 29, 2009, 05:52:31 PM
this might cost you some more money  :D

Oh, even were the remastering bad, it would have. I'm hopeless with respect to the Karajan discography. ;D

(Many thanks for the tip-off, though. I seriously did not think EMI would have the sheer audacity to- [mutters].)

Coopmv

Quote from: Guido on March 29, 2009, 02:50:16 AM
This thread has a brilliant title!


and: 20 versions of the ninth?!

This is about right IMO.  I have no intention to have versions performed by the likes of Estonian National Orchestra or the Beijing Philharmonic in my collection.  Bottomline, I just want to have the generally acknowledged top 10-15 orchestras represented in my collection with some orchestras like the BPO, VPO or the RCO performed under different conductors or in different decade with the same conductor.

Renfield

Quote from: Coopmv on March 29, 2009, 06:52:10 PM
This is about right IMO.  I have no intention to have versions performed by the likes of Estonian National Orchestra or the Beijing Philharmonic in my collection.  Bottomline, I just want to have the generally acknowledged top 10-15 orchestras represented in my collection with some orchestras like the BPO, VPO or the RCO performed under different conductors or in different decade with the same conductor.

I assure you, there are many more than 20 9ths that are not performed by B-grade orchestras recording on Naxos. ;)

(No particular offense meant to Naxos, though I am still at a personal loss to justify their re-recording of the core repertory using third-rate ensembles.)

Coopmv

Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
I assure you, there are many more than 20 9ths that are not performed by B-grade orchestras recording on Naxos. ;)

(No particular offense meant to Naxos, though I am still at a personal loss to justify their re-recording of the core repertory using third-rate ensembles.)

Come to think of it, I actually do not have any Beethoven symphonies on Naxos at all.  I tend to buy Naxos only for some of the more rarely performed works.  I do have this historical Beethoven 9th recording by HvK with the Vienna Symphony.


Renfield

Quote from: Coopmv on March 29, 2009, 07:03:28 PM
Come to think of it, I actually do not have any Beethoven symphonies on Naxos at all.  I tend to buy Naxos only for some of the more rarely performed works.  I do have this historical Beethoven 9th recording by HvK with the Vienna Symphony.



Now that is an (apparently) controversial 9th. I've read reviews that completely dismissed it, and also glowing praise.

What did you think of it? Myself, I'd far from consider it the best available live Karajan 9th (commercially or otherwise), mostly on account of the 'creaky-sounding' VSO, but I'd say it's a solid enough account: there's nothing particularly bad about it! :)

Brian

Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
I assure you, there are many more than 20 9ths that are not performed by B-grade orchestras recording on Naxos. ;)

(No particular offense meant to Naxos, though I am still at a personal loss to justify their re-recording of the core repertory using third-rate ensembles.)
In the early 1990s, they did so to make money because they were a super-budget label and could make money on that model.

Artistically, Naxos has had some considerable successes in the core repertoire. Here's my handy list based solely on my personal experience. There are other great examples in that thread, the Mendelssohn Octet chief among them. And for what it's worth, I love Stephen Gunzenhauser's Slovakian take on the Beethoven overtures.

The Naxos LvB 9, with the Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, features maybe my favorite tenor-solo performance - Manfred Fink's take is so, well, joyful; you can hear him smiling! - but otherwise is not noteworthy.

Herman

Quote from: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 02:16:28 PM
Nothing wrong with that, seeing as the 9th is one of the greatest achievements of the entire western civilization.

No it is not. It is not even one of Beethoven's most succesful symphonies, artistically.

DarkAngel

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 29, 2009, 05:52:31 PM
Renfield
Looking at back of package on Amazon artwork it has been given the ART remaster treatment......just like all the GROTC series
Usually these are very good, I remember long ago comparing the Klemperer Mahler 2nd original CD to the ART remastered Great Recording of the Century version and it was very noticeable improvement......this might cost you some more money  :D

Well I got the newly released 1950s EMI Beethoven 5CD set, booklet says remastered 2008 by EMI (Walter Legge production).......I would be surprised if big Karajan EMI box is not also remastered but don't own it so can't verify, perhaps Renfield can check his set and see if remaster date is given

The sound on this remastered set is very good, never owned old set so can't compare, this is about as good as mono can sound.
And the performances are great also, comparing the 1950 vs 1960 vs 1970 sets the fastest timings remain with 1970s set, the 1950s set is actually slightly slower than 1960s set but sounds a bit more dramatic overall.

If I could keep only one set it would be an easy decision for me...........1970s set (includes one of the greatest 9ths ever)

Jay F


jwinter

Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 05, 2009, 12:17:06 PM
What is "banana"? Did the Velvet Underground have a version?

Old forum joke.  If you think it's a stupid poll, vote banana.  If you look at polls over at the old forum, you'll see it all over the place.  :)
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Jay F

Quote from: jwinter on April 06, 2009, 04:28:35 AM
Old forum joke.  If you think it's a stupid poll, vote banana.  If you look at polls over at the old forum, you'll see it all over the place.  :)
Ah. Thanks for the tip.

bluto32

Happy New Year!

This thread seems the ideal place to ask for advice on Karajan Beethoven symphony cycles.

I was about to plump for the 77 cycle based on what I have read here (and in other threads) so far:

* EMI 50s in mono, but I would prefer stereo
* DG 63 very highly regarded but
   (i) sound a bit mediocre on standard release
   (ii) SACD set is better although very expensive and I don't have an SACD player...
   (iii) apparently there are some "train wreck" incidents in I and II of the 9th where the orchestra isn't keeping in time very well
   (iv) No. 6 supposedly poor
* DG 77 also very highly regarded with perhaps a better 6th. Better sound than standard 63 release
* DG 80s - not much info on this other than the sound is reportedly very poor despite being DDD.

However... There is a massive 13 CD set released in 2011 which is just called "Karajan Beethoven", featuring all the 80s symphonies along with the piano concertos (Weissenberg) and other stuff. The extras aren't terribly important to me, however - it's the symphones I'm most interested in as I have the concertos already by other artists. This set is relatively cheap (about the same price as the 77 cycle) and one reviewer on Amazon said that the 80s symphonies were the "Gold remastering" edition which sound fantastic - better than the 77.

[asin]B005IML464[/asin]

Anyone here care to comment? Is the sound quality very good, and how do the interpretations differ from the 77? Also, what's the singing like in No. 9?

Thanks,
Bluto

bigshot

They were called gold on first release, I believe. I doubt remastering would fix those. The problem was the miking and mixing.

kishnevi

I'd say the 1960s because it's the one I have.   :P

Seriously,  I don't have a problem recommending it, although I've not heard anything from the other sets
1) the sound strikes me as being par for the course for that era.  May not be great, but it's not bad.
2) I don't remember anything wrong in the 9th, although it's been a while since I've listened to that one.
3) Nor did the 6th sound sub-par to me--but that's the least favorite symphony for me out of the whole cycle, because I played the heck out of it early on in my listening career and now suffer a sort of burn out in that one.

trung224

  As a Karajan's admirer, I don't recommend the 1980s and 1950s cycle. The 1950s cycle is brilliance, energetic but streamline and faceless, just like performances by other young conductors (at that time) such as Bernstein on Sony, Cantelli and Fricsay. The 1980s cycle is at very good sound (in the Gold Edition) but too polished, lacks bite and inevitable feelings in 1960s and 1970s cycle.

Coopmv

While not a complete set, I picked up this single about 2 years ago.  This is on the Melodiya label ...


DavidA

I have the 62 set and also own the Choral from 77 (fantastic) and the Eroica from the 80s set. I also owned the 77 set on vinyl years ago when it first came out. Honestly it really is a matter of roundabouts and swings. On the whole the 62 set is the most highly regarded but the 77 choral is probably the best of Karajan's performances and possibly the finest on disc. Obviously no one conductor is going to reign supreme in every work and even in individual movements there are variables. Fior example, the funeral march in the 80s Eroica is superb - possibly the best HvK did. If you own the 62 set the first movement of no 6 is a bit airless but apart from that you can't go far wrong with Karajan, whatever sniffy remarks are made by certain critics.

Coopmv

Quote from: DavidA on January 05, 2013, 10:51:15 AM
I have the 62 set and also own the Choral from 77 (fantastic) and the Eroica from the 80s set. I also owned the 77 set on vinyl years ago when it first came out. Honestly it really is a matter of roundabouts and swings. On the whole the 62 set is the most highly regarded but the 77 choral is probably the best of Karajan's performances and possibly the finest on disc. Obviously no one conductor is going to reign supreme in every work and even in individual movements there are variables. Fior example, the funeral march in the 80s Eroica is superb - possibly the best HvK did. If you own the 62 set the first movement of no 6 is a bit airless but apart from that you can't go far wrong with Karajan, whatever sniffy remarks are made by certain critics.

I have every Beethoven cycle (I believe) Karajan had ever recorded, including the version he recorded with the Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI.