Handel Suggestions

Started by bassio, February 23, 2008, 05:06:32 AM

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DavidRoss

Quote from: Rod Corkin on July 03, 2008, 01:25:05 PM
You know were to find me MC, In addition to my posts here I currently have 3904 gems of wisdom for you to read at my site.
Why don't you post some of those gems over here, instead of the lumps of coal you keep shovelling our way?
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

PSmith08

Quote from: DavidRoss on July 03, 2008, 01:29:02 PM
Why don't you post some of those gems over here, instead of the lumps of coal you keep shovelling our way?

At today's prices for oil, assuming we have the necessary facilities to run the Fischer-Tropsch process, Rowdy Roddy Corkin is leaving a steaming pile of gems for us here.

FideLeo

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on July 01, 2008, 10:59:26 PM

J.S. BACH.

(That's it. Time to lock the thread, guys.)

So you say.  Indeed, time to lock the thread.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Rod Corkin

Quote from: PSmith08 on July 03, 2008, 02:27:38 PM
At today's prices for oil, assuming we have the necessary facilities to run the Fischer-Tropsch process, Rowdy Roddy Corkin is leaving a steaming pile of gems for us here.


Ooh bitchy boys.   :-*
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Marc

Quote from: donwyn on March 20, 2008, 06:35:45 AM
Rod, until you come up with something concrete we have no other choice but to believe it's fantasy. Give us some answers and then we'll see. You can start with the questions I posed to you awhile back:

[Quote from: donwyn on March 05, 2008, 03:14:27 AM]
Why in the world would anybody be even remotely interested in keeping a classical composer "unduly in the shadows"??

And just what is the crime for which Handel is guilty? Why is the 'establishment' picking on him so much?


Is Gustav Leonhardt a member of the 'establishment'? (Or is he referring to and complaining about some other establishment as well? ;))

I once read Leonhardt's opinion about Händel on a Dutch Wiki-site on Händel's Messiah:
In my opinion, the man is a very overestimated composer. He was able to raise an acceptable front, but did not have the capacities at all to build the cathedral behind it. Outward effect, métier, nothing more.
In a discussion about this statement there were some Leonhardt-pro's and contra's. I was a contra, and another contra was quoting Beethoven, who praised Händel more than once during his lifetime. But according to a Leonhardt-pro, Beethoven was wrong in other occasions, too. For instance: about Napoleon Bonaparte! ;D (Indeed a very bad composer!)
And why would you take someone like LvB seriously: he was an important cause of the decibel-inflation!

My personal opinion was/is: a statement like Leonhardt's is far too generalizing. I think that there are a lot of other good composers who have produced work made to order, too. And I doubt if Händel is really very overestimated. Maybe he is praised an 'awful' lot in good old England, but hey, why not be proud of your English-German hero?
Personally, I have always preferred Bach above Händel, but I certainly enjoy listening to GFH very much. And Bach himself thought great of the man .... or so the 'books' say.
About Beethoven's decibel-inflation: rubbish ofcourse. What about some of Bach's organ works? ;)

Well, sorry for this rather late reaction, but only today I laid my eyes on this topic. IMHO, I doubt if a musical establishment really exists. I feel that this establishment needs to be created sometimes, just to make a fierce statement now and then, or to force a so-called revolution.

Rod Corkin

#125
Quote from: Marc on July 18, 2008, 08:27:23 PM
Well, sorry for this rather late reaction, but only today I laid my eyes on this topic. IMHO, I doubt if a musical establishment really exists. I feel that this establishment needs to be created sometimes, just to make a fierce statement now and then, or to force a so-called revolution.

I made a rather fierce statement it appears. But you appear a little confused.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Rod Corkin on July 20, 2008, 11:45:04 AM
I made a rather fierce statement it appears. But you appear a little confused.

He's not confused...



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Jo498

There are a lot of factually simply wrong things written in this thread (so maybe I shouldn't necro it, I do not even remember how I stumbled upon it...). Handel's music was never "forgotten", he is actually one of the first composers who has remained in the repertoire since his lifetime. Only the opere serie were in a form that became obsolete very soon.
For the large scale oratorios and other choral works this is not true at all; they set the frame for "monumental" and representative choral music for Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Brahms (Triumphlied). Mozart arranged 4 vocal works (and borrowed from several Handel pieces for the c minor mass and the first part of the Requiem), Mendelssohn re-orchestrated Acis & Galathea and arranged Israel in Egypt. Handel was also one of the first composers to receive a (pre-)scholarly edition in the monumental effort by Chrysander (with some collaboration by Brahms).
The keyboard and some of the orchestral/chamber music were also frequently re-printed in the later part of the 18th century (so it is a gross oversimplification that this music was "backwards" compared to e.g. Bach, as a side note, minor English composers like Arne and Boyce sound sometimes like a Handel pastiche). Mozart and Beethoven knew and studied the keyboard suites and fugues alongside with Bach's. (There are several passages from Mozart's letters and maybe also other source that name "Bach and Handel" usually in one breath, as the exemplars to be studied for the "learned" and serious style.)

Neither was Bach's music forgotten in the way it is sometimes claimed. His keyboard music was widely known among musicians and the most important works available in print in the early 19th century. Even the re-discovery of the great choral works by Mendelssohn has been wildly exaggerated although it is true that they became only then known to a wider audience. CPE Bach conducted several choral works (or parts thereof) after his father's death, some were also still sung in Leipzig at the end of the century and Mendelssohn did not find them in the trash bin but was introduced to them by Zelter.

Clearly, Bach as a "composer's composer" was considerably more interesting for many musicians in the later 19th century and later but it is actually quite amazing that Handel, who was utterly practical in composing for the demands of his time and place and apparently had very little of the scholarly, educational and theoretical ambition that led Bach to collect refined and exemplary specimen of his art for posteriority, exerted a fairly strong influence on the classical and some romantic composers and was highly respected by most of them. 
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

knight66

This thread had lain dormant for a very long time. I read back through it. Perhaps this time it might generate a larger number of useful posts. Thanks for your context, all nicely relevent.

I will dig out my more recent Handel and have a think. But of established sets that I would never be without there are these:

Julius Caesar on DVD from Glyndbourne with Sarah Connelly utterly convincing as Caesar and a very strong cast giving terrific musical results. The production is fun and serious in turns.

Theodora on DVD from the same source. Treasureable performances from Lorraine Hunt Lieberson and David Daniels and again wonderful conducting and a great production. This is also on CD for those who do not want the visual element.

My fuller reviews of these sets sit elsewhere on the site.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Jo498

Maybe this thread could be moved into composer or recordings subfora as it never really fit into "Beginners".
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

The new erato

The good old Corkin and Newman days. Will we ever see glory (and fun!) like that again?

knight66

#131
Quote from: The new erato on November 18, 2015, 12:04:26 AM
The good old Corkin and Newman days. Will we ever see glory (and fun!) like that again?

I kind of hope not; it took up almost as much time as my day job.

As to the request to move the thread: I will see about it.

Mike

Edit: Done, time now for breakfast.
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Jaakko Keskinen

"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

(poco) Sforzando

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

The new erato

 Don't letThe Queen of Sheba hassle you too much, though.

Kakucha

I get really annoyed by the discussion of whether Handel or Bach is better. Hell, it's art! It's not a sport! If someone creates a thread on a cooking forum about "what's better, apples or oranges", everyone will think he's crazy.
You guys think too much of yourselves. You made Rod look like some kind of urban lunatic! You insulted him with absolute impunity just because he dared to not only speak his mind, but to start defending his point of view.
Rod, I don't know if you can hear me or not, I'm shaking your hand. The Bach cult does exist. But it's a different time now (it's been 16 years since the discussion started, ahhhhhhh). Nowadays, no one, except perhaps staunch Bachians, would put one composer above another.  They are different.  But they are equally great and equally brilliant. whether you like it or not, accept it as an axiom and get over it.
Amen.

DavidW

@Kakucha please don't try to resurrect an argument nine years old. Calling out the entire forum over it is also not a great way to introduce yourself.

San Antone

I periodically delve into the operas, and always enjoy the process.  One of these days I've crack one of the two books I've got on them.