Pettersson's Pavilion

[SymphonicAddict]

This composer has been new for me in this year. How pain you can feel in his works (especially the symphonies), there are many mixed feelings that show the intense suffering that Pettersson lived. I've heard the symphonies 1 to 11 and it's difficult explain with words the emotional content in them. You become absorbed. I highlight with special emphasis the symphonies 6 and 9: Those endings are simply AGONIZING (I have thought of an appropriate word to describe that and I think it's a very close), there is an incredibly strong struggle there, perhaps a battle between life and death, light and darkness... I admire that capacity of survival that had this illustrious composer. I believe without fear of being mistaken that he was one of the great composers of the 20th century and it is more than well deserved that his music be recorded and spread more.

[Mirror Image]

What is Gustav Mahler was a demon born in hell, then came to earth to compose symphonies while retaining a very tragic life?

Then you have one of the greatest alternative-20th century symphonists of all time! 

I think Pettersson is an interesting composer, but he's nowhere near a Mahler or a Shostakovich IMHO.

[Mirror Image]

Lol, it's all opinions but I'm beginning to feel otherwise (regarding his music), many of his symphonies are really strong and heartbreakingly powerful. I would definitely put his name alongside Mahler or Shostakovich without any shame. 

I do have huge love for his Symphony No. 7. I think this is one of the best post-WWII symphonies I've heard from anyone. What I like about it is it's not all dreary, grey skies. I suppose it's just an aesthetic thing, but I just don't find his musical language too appealing and, yes, it's all opinions. What else would it be?

[Monsieur Croche]

I suppose it's just an aesthetic thing, but I just don't find his musical language too appealing and, yes, it's all opinions. What else would it be?

I'm another member of the Patterson is pretty blah to me club.  "Modern harmony" combined with his near to wholesale romantic gestures sensibility leaves me untouched, and while recognizing any composer's ability to hold together a large form, still unimpressed.

I suppose for many, his harmony and musical language are thrillingly adventurous, and we know there are many who just love 'symphony' to a degree where just about any competent 20th century work in that form will get praised, many such praised to a degree far beyond their actual merit because, you know, "It Is A Symphony."  My guess is that it is the highly romantic nature of Patterson's works which has them appealing to so many.

Other than Mahler, who was actually late romantic and to my way of thinking far more truly modern as well (and perhaps Sibelius, though with a retro-conservative musical language, via his subtle varying and development / evolvement of his themes, is also truly more modern than Patterson.) The "great symphonist of the 20th century" thing, imo, is a somewhat odd and regressive thing to celebrate (and I have to here include the Shostakovitch admirers and fanatics.)

But, all opinion, natch, and maybe an over-elaborate way of saying 'it ain't for me.'

[Mirror Image]

I'm another member of the Patterson is pretty blah to me club.  "Modern harmony" combined with his near to wholesale romantic gestures sensibility leaves me untouched, and while recognizing any composer's ability to hold together a large form, still unimpressed.

I suppose for many, his harmony and musical language are thrillingly adventurous, and we know there are many who just love 'symphony' to a degree where just about any competent 20th century work in that form will get praised, many such praised to a degree far beyond their actual merit because, you know, "It Is A Symphony."  My guess is that it is the highly romantic nature of Patterson's works which has them appealing to so many.

Other than Mahler, who was actually late romantic and to my way of thinking far more truly modern as well (and perhaps Sibelius, though with a retro-conservative musical language, via his subtle varying and development / evolvement of his themes, is also truly more modern than Patterson.) The "great symphonist of the 20th century" thing, imo, is a somewhat odd and regressive thing to celebrate (and I have to here include the Shostakovitch admirers and fanatics.)

But, all opinion, natch, and maybe an over-elaborate way of saying 'it ain't for me.'

I'm not one to close doors on a composers just because they aren't 'ahead of their time' or anything of that notion. There's plenty of great music out there that doesn't have one shred of innovation to it that I love. As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not that good.

[Monsieur Croche]

I'm not one to close doors on a composers just because they aren't 'ahead of their time' or anything of that notion.

If that were the case, I would not love at least half of the 20th century composers whose music I do love.  I brought that up in the context of so many wildly praising -- in my perception, anyway -- just about anything 'symphony' to a point where I sense a bias for the form, or notion of it, that allows a suspension of rational critical faciliities ;-)

As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not that good.

Gasp Do you mean to imply that a host of ardent Petterson fans are lacking in discernment? Lol.  But yeah, I've surveyed what can be found on Youtube (a lot of the symphonic works, at any rate) and walk away from each of them when tried with a ho-hum this music is banal and pretty damned boring feeling.

Clearly, he fully engages and entertains more than a little claque or cult of listeners... and that is, ultimately, what any art is for.


Best regards.

[Mirror Image]

If that were the case, I would not love at least half of the 20th century composers whose music I do love.  I brought that up in the context of so many wildly praising -- in my perception, anyway -- just about anything 'symphony' to a point where I sense a bias for the form, or notion of it, that allows a suspension of rational critical faciliities ;-)

Gasp Do you mean to imply that a host of ardent Petterson fans are lacking in discernment? Lol.  But yeah, I've surveyed what can be found on Youtube (a lot of the symphonic works, at any rate) and walk away from each of them when tried with a ho-hum this music is banal and pretty damned boring feeling.

Clearly, he fully engages and entertains more than a little claque or cult of listeners... and that is, ultimately, what any art is for.


Best regards.

Oh yes, there's plenty of Pettersson fans out there. There's one on Amazon who's a reviewer who's name slips me at the moment and basically anyone who criticizes Pettersson's music is an idiot. I guess I'm an idiot, because this composer is someone who I've put under the microscope to figure out what it is exactly I don't like about his music and the end result is always the same: he's a composer who seems hellbent on making us aware of his own suffering and misgivings, but the question I always have whenever I hear one of his works is: do I really care for what message Pettersson is trying to convey? The answer always ends up being the same: a resounding NO!

[Mirror Image]

The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien.

[Monsieur Croche]

Oh yes, there's plenty of Pettersson fans out there. There's one on Amazon who's a reviewer who's name slips me at the moment and basically anyone who criticizes Pettersson's music is an idiot. I guess I'm an idiot, because this composer is someone who I've put under the microscope to figure out what it is exactly I don't like about his music and the end result is always the same: he's a composer who seems hellbent on making us aware of his own suffering and misgivings, but the question I always have whenever I hear one of his works is: do I really care for what message Pettersson is trying to convey? The answer always ends up being the same: a resounding NO!

I don't gauge, rate or go to or avoid music because of it's "emotional content or message." 

The quote I use as my motto is for me a frank statement re: music and art in general...
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Of course, I'm just one guy and this is one guy's opinion, but it could be measured as being even more damning that this composers music, technically, note content, as well as 'whatever else it imports,' flat out "does not express anything to me," i.e. I find it devoid of interest in all of its aspects.

[Monsieur Croche]

The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien.

or ~ Ariadne at Knossos

(Labyrinths are a puzzle, ya know ;-)

[Monsieur Croche]

The Lady in the Labyrinth? Quite possibly a good title for one of your musical puzzle pieces, Alien.

I think you're onto something MI!! 

a little nerd-out aside Re: Labyrinth and the etymology of the word "Clue."

clue
klo͞o
noun: clue; plural noun: clues

    1.
    a piece of evidence or information used in the detection of a crime or solving of a mystery.
    "police officers are still searching for clues"
    synonyms:   hint, indication, sign, signal, pointer, trace, indicator; More
    lead, tip, tipoff;
    evidence, information
    "give me just one clue"
        a fact or idea that serves as a guide or aid in a task or problem.
        "archaeological evidence can give clues about the past"
        synonyms:   hint, indication, sign, signal, pointer, trace, indicator; More
        lead, tip, tipoff;
        evidence, information
        "give me just one clue"

Origin;
CLUE is variant of the late Middle English clew, 'a ball of thread or yarn' ; hence one used to guide a person out of a labyrinth (literally or figuratively).
[The tangential bit that brings the labyrinth-solution weight of meaning in the first place (often not included in lesser tomes where this etymology is concerned):
it is a reference to the myth/history of ancient Greece and Crete -- at the Minoan Palace of Knossos, Ariadne gave Theseus, her lover, a ball of red thread, and Theseus unrolled it as he penetrated the labyrinth (where the Minotaur lived /was kept), which allowed him to find his way back out.]

Sense 1 of the noun dates from the early 17th century.

[Sergeant Rock]

but recently I had a breakthrough with his 9th Symphony.

Excellent. The 9th, along with the 6th, is my favorite Pettersson. The 9th has haunting melodies, often coming out of nowhere to relieve the tension or conversely, add to the struggle between dark and light. I love the many militant episodes. Love the tango (Pettersson dancing in agony). And really love the melancholy string tune that ends with a beautiful Amen cadence, bringing the symphony to a conclusion.


Sarge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

As I mentioned, only with Pettersson's 7th did I find the musical language appealing and appealing in a way that touched me. Everything else I've heard from him, which includes the rest of his symphonic cycle and the Violin Concerto No. 2, hasn't impressed me much at all. For me, a Mahler or a Shostakovich he'll never be, he's just not that good.

I'm actually surprised that you like only the 7th. I think the symphonies that flank it (6 & 8 ) are greater achievements because of their more gripping dramatic structure. The 7th is like an experiment in "depressive minimalism" - lots of repetitive episodes, very effective in conveying a mood, but not really going anywhere.

I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Excellent. The 9th, along with the 6th, is my favorite Pettersson. The 9th has haunting melodies, often coming out of nowhere to relieve the tension or conversely, add to the struggle between dark and light. I love the many militant episodes. Love the tango (Pettersson dancing in agony). And really love the melancholy string tune that ends with a beautiful Amen cadence, bringing the symphony to a conclusion.


Sarge

Thanks for this comment. I've long hesitated over getting into the 9th due to its length and some negative comments I've read. Nice to see a different view. Any preferred recording?

[The new erato]

I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.

That's the one I really struggle with, too.

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks for this comment. I've long hesitated over getting into the 9th due to its length and some negative comments I've read. Nice to see a different view. Any preferred recording?

I have Francis (CPO) and Lindberg (BIS). I like them both. In general, and I'm not sure I can explain this, Francis feels more modern, Lindberg more Romantic. While I have not done a direct comparison, Francis seems to provide greater contrast between sections and his recording is a bit clearer, instruments delineated more cleanly. For example, the tango rhythm is more noticeable in the CPO. I think Lindberg, though, gives a more moving account of the final pages, and most reviews I've seen favor him.

Sarge

[snyprrr]

That's the one I really struggle with, too.

It's not meant to be listened to regularly,... riiight??

Things like 13 are meant for catharsis... unless you're going through a gall stone per week, there's no reason to break out the 13th. It's there for THOSE moments... "break glass in case of emergency",... it's NOT a piece for "digesting" or enjoyment or any such thing.

IT IS.

It just IS.


BUUUT... all this talk of 13 makes me want to make a date... one can work up the lather to listen, takes time,... plan ahead,... no firearms or Jack Daniels or coke...good mood...

I mean, you're playing with fire here... don't get burned (turned off to AGP)...

I have Francis (CPO) and Lindberg (BIS). I like them both. In general, and I'm not sure I can explain this, Francis feels more modern, Lindberg more Romantic. While I have not done a direct comparison, Francis seems to provide greater contrast between sections and his recording is a bit clearer, instruments delineated more cleanly. For example, the tango rhythm is more noticeable in the CPO. I think Lindberg, though, gives a more moving account of the final pages, and most reviews I've seen favor him.

Sarge

Commissiona? gettin aroused already...

[Sergeant Rock]

Commissiona? gettin aroused already...

That's supposed to be the Holy Grail of P9s...but is it available on CD?

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

I'm actually surprised that you like only the 7th. I think the symphonies that flank it (6 & 8 ) are greater achievements because of their more gripping dramatic structure. The 7th is like an experiment in "depressive minimalism" - lots of repetitive episodes, very effective in conveying a mood, but not really going anywhere.

I still struggle with the later symphonies. I recently YouTube'd #13, the piece that put me off Pettersson for years. It's still as intractable and indigestible as ever.

Well, I've never heard any Pettersson work that went anywhere, but the 7th, for me, has much more attractive qualities than any other of works. As I mentioned many times before, Pettersson is a composer that hasn't really done anything for me aside from this one symphony.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

That's supposed to be the Holy Grail of P9s...but is it available on CD?

Sarge

I don't think so. It's one of several pioneering AP performances that has never been re-released.

From what I've read, it's much longer and slower than the 2 other recordings, and the orchestra was kinda flying by the seat of their pants for this one anyway. So it may not be very good.