Pettersson's Pavilion

Started by BachQ, April 08, 2007, 03:16:51 AM

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karlhenning

You are nearly right.

When you see The Light, you know that the clarinet is always at the center of the universe  ;)

BachQ

Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 08:01:30 AM
You are nearly right.

When you see The Light, you know that the clarinet is always at the center of the universe  ;)

Karl, at the center of the universe is a massive blackhole that spins at the speed of light ......... a clarinet would not flourish under such conditions ........

karlhenning

It only seems a blackhole. Black is the Light of the Clarinet . . . .

BachQ

And you know this from firsthand experience? ........  cool! ...........

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 16, 2008, 07:50:56 AM
I'm not into all Sibelius Symphonies, but recently listened a lot to his orchestral tone poems. The violin in Pettersson 3/2 at 7:00 very strongly reminds me of the gorgeous godlike clarinet solo conclusion in the end of Sibelius' "En Saga". This can't only have been written by Sibelius hands, there must have been a god additionally. This clarinet is the center of the world for a short time! I'm getting really crazy whenever I listen to the final En Saga Minutes :)

Wurstwasser, you're absolutely right. A really marvellous passage!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

karlhenning

Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 08:19:00 AM
And you know this from firsthand experience? ........  cool! ...........

Clarinets flourish under all conditions!

paulb

Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2008, 10:11:09 AM
Clarinets flourish under all conditions!

You know Karl,
I smile when i read any enthusiastic comments about Sibelius, also recalling my younger days  when Sibelius was so important in my listenings. hardly  a  day went by I did not hear from  Sibelius.
Those days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Sibelius once  held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life.

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: paulb on January 16, 2008, 11:28:04 AMThose days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Sibelius once  held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life.
Amen. Vice versa here, what I can say is: Those days are gone, I've moved on. but will never forget the sense of importance Pettersson once  held. Ahh how we grow old with the changes that come our way. But life moves on, we too must go with life. Now I listen to Sibelius a lot.

karlhenning

How you 'grew out of' Sibelius, I may likely never know, Paul.  Over decades, his music has remained fresh and vital for me.

For me so far, I have pretty much enjoyed the five or so Pettersson symphonies I've heard, and at some point I will be sure to listen to the rest, but his music has not had the compulsive force by me, which Sibelius's has always had (FWIW).

Hartmann has been more of a tug on my listening, than Pettersson (again, FWIW).

By all means, share your enthusiasm for Pettersson, Paul.  Trashing Sibelius will show, not any supposed shortcomings on the part of that great composer, but only the boundaries of your own enthusiasms.  Just saying.

paulb

Quote from: karlhenning on January 17, 2008, 04:05:01 AM
How you 'grew out of' Sibelius, I may likely never know, Paul.  Over decades, his music has remained fresh and vital for me.



Hartmann has been more of a tug on my listening, than Pettersson (again, FWIW).



Just trying to break down the old crusty iconic thinking that so frequents these message boards.
Showing how one man's journey into CM reflects the changes he made on a  inner psychological level.
Tough as one poster welcomed me back "tho Paul , i see you none the wiser" , refering to statements that might cause a  bit ofa   uproar. By sharing my experiences, i feel this may influence other newbies to also "think outside the box". The name Sibelius has been rigidly established within the CM cannon, and will suffer no harm from any  personal innunendos.
The fact that Sibelius is a  vital force in you life, and yet Pettersson you are 'just comming around to" shows how different we are all as individuals.
The muisc of Sibelius is further receding into my background. As the other day when revisiting my once loved Lemminakainen Legends, the music didn't strike the chords in me as once before.
Thats one of the few remaining works i once loved. Still do in some sense, but ever receding. That leaves only the Kullervo as my fav from Sibelius, and i fear revisiting  not knowing what the work really means to me.
I suspect all the new music that has come my way in recent yrs has been the culprit in this sense of renewal.

Hartmann is germany's greatest symphonist, and one of the most important 20th C composers, on the level of Shostakovich. But this recognition will require some time, maybe decades+. Yet in time it will come.
Pettersson was scandanavia's greatest symphonist, which will also be established in due course.
man is asleep.

Paul

BachQ

Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 07:18:38 AM
Hartmann is germany's greatest symphonist,

Ah hell ....... He is the greatest symphonist in all of Europe ........  :D

J.Z. Herrenberg

#111
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?'  He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.

UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?

(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)

Johan
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

karlhenning

Right, definitely don't see Pettersson and Sibelius as an either/or matter.

paulb

#113
Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?'  He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.

UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?

(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)

Johan

Jez gald to know you know and appreciate the syms of Hartmann. Germany's greatest symphonist. Take pettersson is small doses, stay with the 6th and 7th. After some months go with the 8th and so forth. Will take you some yrs to work through the entire 6-15.
btw those who have the 12th CPO in the set, I so wish that you could experience the Caprice recording. Its on another level.

Doesn't have to be either/or with any 2 composers. But in the long run, in the end i know how the journey will go. At least to those who are of a certain disposition inwardly.
I'm introvert and thus inner values hold graeter importance. Maslows hiearchy of valuation comes in to play, there's readjustments made along the path of life.

http://www.amazon.com/tag/classical%20music/forum/ref=
scroll for Pettersson

BachQ

Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 08:28:09 AM
Take pettersson is small doses, stay with the 6th and 7th. After some months go with the 8th and so forth.

Separately, we seem to recall from your original thread in the old forum that Sidoze considered Pettersson 9 to be Pettersson's most intense, and most rewarding symphony .........  Sidoze also directly compared 7 and 9 (IIRC), and deemed 9 to be his stand-out favorite.....




paulb

Quote from: Dm on January 17, 2008, 10:41:53 AM
Separately, we seem to recall from your original thread in the old forum that Sidoze considered Pettersson 9 to be Pettersson's most intense, and most rewarding symphony .........  Sidoze also directly compared 7 and 9 (IIRC), and deemed 9 to be his stand-out favorite.....





Once one becomes more familar with the syms 6-15 ( I have recently included the choral 12th as part of the cycle, due to the overwhelming power that matches the other syms, though has to be the Caprice to hear the full emotional  force of the work), then the 9th doesn't stand out anymore than the 7th or 8th.
The liner notes in the CPO or BIS, can't recall, mention the 7,8,9 as the core of the group.
One would have to read the biography on Pettersson to get more insight into the symphoines as beinga   constructive , intergrative whole, with each sym as part of the cycle.

Here's the syms structure in movements:
6th :   1
7th:    1
8th:     2
9th:     1 (17 measures with no breaks)
10th:    1
11th;    1
12th:    1
13th:     1
14th:     1
15th:      1

I was unaware of just how few, << only the 8th has 2, but there is not much ofa   break in the 2 movements, the 8th is basicallya   continuous whole>>>  mutli movement syms were in the cycle, untli just now posting.
This display of the cycles movements seems to concur with my idea as being parts to a  greater whole. This idea became more apparent  as the characterization of each sym seemed to strike chords from the one before and after. There is some sort of progression, and the 11th seems to be the interlude, like an axis of the middle of the cycle.
6,7,8,9 ,10. then 12,13,14,15.
Thats 4 syms on each side the 11th. So there may be something to this 11th as being the midway point. The 11th does not possess that striking sharp markings as in all the others. it sounds as if this is a  resting place.


vandermolen

I love the music of Pettersson (Violin Concerto 2 and symphs 6-8 in particular) but Sibelius was and is the only composer whose music I can listen to, regardless of the mood I am in. Probably Tapiola is my favourite work but I have been listening a lot to Symphony No 2 recently. I hardly listened to it before, as I focused more on nos 3-7 but it has really grown on me, especially the wonderfully inspiriting ending.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Thanks paulb, Dm and vandermolen for your remarks. I think I'll begin my exploration of Pettersson with his Sixth, and go very slowly through the following symphonies. I will certainly report back.

Paulb: your remarks about introversion vs. Sibelius are interesting. Yes, there is a public, nationalist side to Sibelius, the ending of the Second Symphony is a case in point. Simon Vestdijk, a Dutch author who wrote a study about Sibelius, called that final movement 'a speech by a tribune'. Sibelius also has a feeling for mythology and an intense rapport with Nature. Now you could see this triad - Finnish myth, society and nature - as external things impinging upon consciousness. And in this way of thinking Pettersson is of course the perfect opposite of Sibelius: he seems to express his inner being rawly and emotionally. You really could say, from what I have heard of it, his music is Expressionist. But still - I would suggest that Sibelius too expresses himself as intimately and personally, but often with musical imagery taken from the external world. Although a work like the Fourth Symphony, to me, is as harrowing and searching as any by Pettersson (a claim I can't yet back up, of course, and simply based on my earliest impressions; but we'll see...)

I'm sorry you lost your Sibelian antennae. For me change means becoming larger, more encompassing. Like I'm now trying to 'get into' Pettersson. I simply accord a composer I don't need to listen to on a daily basis anymore a different place in a wider space.

Johan

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

paulb

Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
Thanks paulb, Dm and vandermolen for your remarks. I think I'll begin my exploration of Pettersson with his Sixth, and go very slowly through the following symphonies. I will certainly report back.

Paulb: your remarks about introversion vs. Sibelius are interesting. Yes, there is a public, nationalist side to Sibelius, the ending of the Second Symphony is a case in point. Simon Vestdijk, a Dutch author who wrote a study about Sibelius, called that final movement 'a speech by a tribune'. Sibelius also has a feeling for mythology and an intense rapport with Nature. Now you could see this triad - Finnish myth, society and nature - as external things impinging upon consciousness. And in this way of thinking Pettersson is of course the perfect opposite of Sibelius: he seems to express his inner being rawly and emotionally. You really could say, from what I have heard of it, his music is Expressionist. But still - I would suggest that Sibelius too expresses himself as intimately and personally, but often with musical imagery taken from the external world. Although a work like the Fourth Symphony, to me, is as harrowing and searching as any by Pettersson (a claim I can't yet back up, of course, and simply based on my earliest impressions; but we'll see...)

I'm sorry you lost your Sibelian antennae. For me change means becoming larger, more encompassing. Like I'm now trying to 'get into' Pettersson. I simply accord a composer I don't need to listen to on a daily basis anymore a different place in a wider space.

Johan



Johan
Give pettersson some space and time. It made take decades before the music strikes you deeply.
It took me 20 yrs to find Pettersson. though back in 1985  there were only a  few LP's , the 7th and 8th and even then i was not ready on a  psychological basis to receive the content of the music. You realzie some composers are simple to grasp, others require patience and effort.
I intentional make the sacrifice of Sibelius , so as to better absorb other compoers I hold a  much greater interest. Its a  personal decision. I may revist several Sibelius works over the yrs, but not so frequent as in my early yrs.

Now I heard the 5th sym , CPO and madea   deeper impact on me that the BIS. So I am now officially including the 5th as the opening of the cycle.
does anyone know know how I can upload the scan of a  document like the notes i scanned off the sym 5/CPO?
I want to insert them in Image but do not know the process.
Or if anyone can scan the notes of the 5th and post it, I'd appreciate it.
The author says the 5-9 are part of a  "block" of symphonic material.
I read that AFTER i determined the 5th belongs in the cycle.
Goes to show how in touch I am with pettersson's music.
Sibelius is more of a  historic element, Pettersson has the breath of life.

Grazioso

Quote from: Jezetha on January 17, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
It's funny - the late music critic Hugh Ottaway once asked himself: 'What kind of symphonism is this?'  He was speaking about Havergal Brian, whose music sounds so natural and inevitable to me that the question wouldn't occur to me at all. But it does with Pettersson. I find his music baffling. I don't know why it moves the way it does. I can't figure out why he would use percussion in a given passage, or why not. I don't understand his structures, that sound extremely spontaneous and fluid. If you ask which symphony I'm talking about, I don't remember. I can hear a very original mind at work, but I don't know how to get in.

UNTIL yesterday that is (I hope). I followed a link from this thread to a YouTube clip of the ending of the Seventh. And I must say - I think I began to understand the logic of this music... Apart from the Seventh - any recommendations for further exploration (I see 5-9 mentioned a lot)?

(Btw I love Hartmann, especially symphonies 2-6. And Sibelius...)

Johan

With the 7th in particular, the development of the music is very organic, as opposed to architectural. Segments or sections grow and branch out from the germs planted earlier, and with repeated listening, you'll hear how Pettersson will drop a casual hint of things to come, like someone tossing a seed on the ground. Later you find it's grown into a majestic tree. The 8th is similar in this regard.

Re: introversion, I also hear Pettersson as probably the most intensely inward, private, personal, and emotionally raw composer I've encountered. It's more like you're eavesdropping on a man muttering his darkest inmost secrets to himself versus an artist consciously creating a work for public consumption, evaluation, and entertainment.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle