Pettersson's Pavilion

Started by BachQ, April 08, 2007, 03:16:51 AM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Grazioso on January 18, 2008, 05:04:44 AM
With the 7th in particular, the development of the music is very organic, as opposed to architectural. Segments or sections grow and branch out from the germs planted earlier, and with repeated listening, you'll hear how Pettersson will drop a casual hint of things to come, like someone tossing a seed on the ground. Later you find it's grown into a majestic tree. The 8th is similar in this regard.

Re: introversion, I also hear Pettersson as probably the most intensely inward, private, personal, and emotionally raw composer I've encountered. It's more like you're eavesdropping on a man muttering his darkest inmost secrets to himself versus an artist consciously creating a work for public consumption, evaluation, and entertainment.

In an earlier version of my post I called Petterssons's music 'stream of consciousness'. Which isn't much different from how you characterise it, Grazioso. I think I'll start with the 7th, seeing I found the ending quite fascinating.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Grazioso

Quote from: Jezetha on January 18, 2008, 05:09:24 AM
In an earlier version of my post I called Petterssons's music 'stream of consciousness'. Which isn't much different from how you characterise it, Grazioso. I think I'll start with the 7th, seeing I found the ending quite fascinating.

To me, the 7th is one of the towering monuments of the symphonic literature, fully worthy of ranking beside the masterpieces of Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, etc. Almost the whole symphony is available on Youtube, btw, in multiple segments. There are at least 2 CD recordings of it in print, on BIS and CPO.

I would perhaps use "stream of consciousness" to describe some of Pettersson's other symphonies I've heard, which can sound like extended violent outbursts. I don't mean either description as derogatory, though, and it's certainly possible I just haven't heard all the hidden connections of, say, the 10th.

I wouldn't apply that term to the 7th, though, as there is clear form and development and recapitulation of ideas, just in a different manner from more "typical" symphonic works.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Hector

Stream of consciousness? I do not think so but can understand why that may appear to be so.

Pettersson is a master symphonist and repeat listening will reveal a very clever structure to each work.

Personally, after all the doom, gloom and pain I think his symphonies end in hope.

I know I may be in a minority of one in thinking that but that is what I hear. If Pettersson had no hope then he might as well have gone out and done what many of his countrymen are accused, wrongly, of doing and commit suicide.

Also, he was a great composer of tunes!

If you want stream of consciousness try some of the current composers that inhabit the Baltic States and Silvestrov!

The 7th is a good place to start. That's where I started but do not expect an easy ride.

J.Z. Herrenberg

#123
Quote from: Hector on January 18, 2008, 06:14:34 AM
Stream of consciousness? I do not think so but can understand why that may appear to be so.

Pettersson is a master symphonist and repeat listening will reveal a very clever structure to each work.

The 7th is a good place to start. That's where I started but do not expect an easy ride.

I used the term 'stream of consciousness' in no derogatory sense, but simply to describe the way the music comes across to someone not used to this way of structuring. The 7th will be my first real try at 'cracking' P. I have two recordings - Dorati and Segerstam. I'll listen to both.

Btw, I'm not the kind of man much interested in 'easy rides'...  ;)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

not edward

Here's a random question.

I've heard seven of the symphonies (have 3, 4 and 13 on cpo; 7, 8, 10 and 11 on BIS).

8 and 10 are really the only ones that draw me back, perhaps because there's more defiance in them than elsewhere? 3 and 4 seem a bit immature to me; 13 I can't get into at all; 7 and 11 seem a bit flat (though maybe that's the Segerstam recording).

I might consider another single Pettersson recording to see if I can replicate my experience with 8 and 10 (works I do think highly of). Any suggestions?
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

karlhenning

Quote from: Jezetha on January 18, 2008, 06:23:09 AM
Btw, I'm not the kind of man much interested in 'easy rides'...  ;)

I think the Seventh was the first to which I had listened.  FWIW, I did not find it at all a 'bumpy ride'.

I am reading all this with interest, though I have yet to dig back into Pettersson.

vandermolen

Quote from: vandermolen on January 17, 2008, 01:50:48 PM
I love the music of Pettersson (Violin Concerto 2 and symphs 6-8 in particular) but Sibelius was and is the only composer whose music I can listen to, regardless of the mood I am in. Probably Tapiola is my favourite work but I have been listening a lot to Symphony No 2 recently. I hardly listened to it before, as I focused more on nos 3-7 but it has really grown on me, especially the wonderfully inspiriting ending.

Pettersson's 6th Symphony is a great place to start. It is a very moving and powerful work: "the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it. I wish that Sony would issue my old CBS LP version on CD conducted by Okko Kamu, I think that it is a better performance than the (very good) one on CPO.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

The new erato

Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:40:39 AM
Pettersson's 6th Symphony is a great place to start. It is a very moving and powerful work: "the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it. I wish that Sony would issue my old CBS LP version on CD conducted by Okko Kamu, I think that it is a better performance than the (very good) one on CPO.
Not to mention the 8th by Comissiona/Baltimore on Polar, have it on LP but miss it on CD (am listening to the Sergerstam 8th on BIS now). I have the Kamu on LP as well.

MDL

Quote from: edward on January 18, 2008, 08:08:39 AM
Here's a random question.

I've heard seven of the symphonies (have 3, 4 and 13 on cpo; 7, 8, 10 and 11 on BIS).

8 and 10 are really the only ones that draw me back, perhaps because there's more defiance in them than elsewhere? 3 and 4 seem a bit immature to me; 13 I can't get into at all; 7 and 11 seem a bit flat (though maybe that's the Segerstam recording).

I might consider another single Pettersson recording to see if I can replicate my experience with 8 and 10 (works I do think highly of). Any suggestions?

Symphony No.7, Stockholm Philharmonic conducted by Antal Dorati. I haven't heard the Segerstam recording, but Dorati's is a more vivid and engaging performance than the CPO, good as that seems to be.

vandermolen

Quote from: erato on January 18, 2008, 08:50:57 AM
Not to mention the 8th by Comissiona/Baltimore on Polar, have it on LP but miss it on CD (am listening to the Sergerstam 8th on BIS now). I have the Kamu on LP as well.

I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

The new erato

Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 11:59:49 AM
I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.
It was originally recorded and released on Polar,the Swedish label run by Stickan Andersson, the manager of Abba, and also the source of Abba releases. His way of making atonement...he got some Swedish cultural prize for it as well.

paulb

Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 11:59:49 AM
I have the Comissiona Baltimore Symphony 8 on DGG. A surprising release from DGG in the LP days. It's a great performance I agree.

Possibe.
But I have to say I found both the CPO and BIS 7th's more to my liking of the work. and the CPO 14 th i prefered slightly more than the Comissiona's 14th.
The Dorati 7th I found to a  "dud". Hated the thing.

Stream of consciousness may not be a  bad phrase to describe Pettersson as the muisc is quite alive, if only you can tap into that straem. many cannot. Its not a  stream as in tranquil like a  mountain spring, but like the roar of a  lion. many hear pettersson and know there's something he's saying, but just what is the ideas,  few can figure out.
but there is definetly a  message there.
You know god is not limited by written documents like the bible. He can still speak in whatever form or message, if he so decides.


greg

i bet you've been asked this is a million times before, but do you have a favorite Pettersson symphony, Paul?

vandermolen

Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 03:24:23 PM
Possibe.
But I have to say I found both the CPO and BIS 7th's more to my liking of the work. and the CPO 14 th i prefered slightly more than the Comissiona's 14th.
The Dorati 7th I found to a  "dud". Hated the thing.

Stream of consciousness may not be a  bad phrase to describe Pettersson as the muisc is quite alive, if only you can tap into that straem. many cannot. Its not a  stream as in tranquil like a  mountain spring, but like the roar of a  lion. many hear pettersson and know there's something he's saying, but just what is the ideas,  few can figure out.
but there is definetly a  message there.
You know god is not limited by written documents like the bible. He can still speak in whatever form or message, if he so decides.



V thought-provoking message; thank you. I am biased towards Dorati's Decca No 7 as it was my introduction to Pettersson in the LP era.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

paulb

Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 18, 2008, 03:26:07 PM
i bet you've been asked this is a million times before, but do you have a favorite Pettersson symphony, Paul?

No one has asked me, though that is a  topical question frequently petitioned on just about every major symphonist composer. So it stands to reason , "why not for Pettersson?"
I would have to say the 7th striks me most powerfully , it has that central core resolution which does its best to reconcile and calm the former tumulutous stormings. I think the 7th will be chosen as the one sym some US conductor decides "its time for Pettersson in the US concert halls". The audience will be in for one big surprise of the emotional nature of the sym. Many concert goers have yet  to even hear the composers name.
But then that 7,8,9 'trinity' are all somehow conjoined. Honestly i'm more leaning to the idea of the 6-15 as one symphonic cycle. There's this inner cohesiveness that ties one to the other.

I am trying to get someone to translate the poem by pablo Neruda used in the 12th sym. may be some some weeks.
I wish one day the Caprice re-releases the 12th, so that all get to hear its raw emotional power.

greg

Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 04:20:34 PM
No one has asked me, though that is a  topical question frequently petitioned on just about every major symphonist composer. So it stands to reason , "why not for Pettersson?"
I would have to say the 7th striks me most powerfully , it has that central core resolution which does its best to reconcile and calm the former tumulutous stormings. I think the 7th will be chosen as the one sym some US conductor decides "its time for Pettersson in the US concert halls". The audience will be in for one big surprise of the emotional nature of the sym. Many concert goers have yet  to even hear the composers name.
But then that 7,8,9 'trinity' are all somehow conjoined. Honestly i'm more leaning to the idea of the 6-15 as one symphonic cycle. There's this inner cohesiveness that ties one to the other.

I am trying to get someone to translate the poem by pablo Neruda used in the 12th sym. may be some some weeks.
I wish one day the Caprice re-releases the 12th, so that all get to hear its raw emotional power.

i've only revisited about 4 or 5 of his symphonies (the last few weeks), and my favorite out of those might be the 8th...... but really, it's hard to say when there's 15 and you've only heard a few more than once  ;D
but the emotional honesty is definetely one of my favorite things about him....
maybe he'll end up like Mahler, not played much for awhile and then rediscovered and very popular?  :)

paulb

Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 18, 2008, 05:10:53 PM
i've only revisited about 4 or 5 of his symphonies (the last few weeks), and my favorite out of those might be the 8th...... but really, it's hard to say when there's 15 and you've only heard a few more than once  ;D
but the emotional honesty is definetely one of my favorite things about him....
maybe he'll end up like Mahler, not played much for awhile and then rediscovered and very popular?  :)

I just came back to the computer after hearing the 7th and now on to the 8th as its playing in the background.
i wanted to say one of my all time favorite places in Pettersson is the 8th, First Part, starting right at 9:50, athen going on for a  few minutes.
Anyone care to share their impressions of this section, loved to hear it.
Then around the 15 minute mark things really get 'helter skelter", whirlwind of horrors.

I need to go back to the original thread and see what my friend wrote on the 8th...ahh I just tried and its locked out. I'm not sure he's part of the forum anymore.
Anyway, Mahler fans are most certainly welcome on the Pettersson forum  ;)

It will take some young new conductors to come on the podiums to bring forth works of Hartmann, Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter. Young conductors that wield a  baton of iron and won't take no sh*t from any board of regents, as to what to perform and not.
We need some conductors to come along that got nerves like ol Reiner.
Germany has performed the most Pettersson to date, Sweden next. I read that somewhere before.
I think the swedes are just now waking up to Pettersson, there's a  new P Society page from Sweden. . Just as america is waking up to Elliott Carter.
Not sure if germany has acknowledge her finest symphonist in the concert halls, KA Hartmann.
Certain aspects of CM is still in its infancy stages in  regards to 20th C composers.

Daverz

Quote from: paulb on January 18, 2008, 06:10:12 PM
i wanted to say one of my all time favorite places in Pettersson is the 8th, First Part, starting right at 9:50, athen going on for a  few minutes.
Anyone care to share their impressions of this section, loved to hear it.
Then around the 15 minute mark things really get 'helter skelter", whirlwind of horrors.

I've listened to the Cimissiona Lp of this work many times.  Mezmerizing.

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

#138
Quote from: Hector on January 18, 2008, 06:14:34 AMPersonally, after all the doom, gloom and pain I think his symphonies end in hope.
#6? It ends in pain and sorrow. Fortunately! I really admire the #9 last minutes, what a pain, what a lament, but I really hate the very ending, this idea of hope... which is kind of clownish, like a tribute to his critics.

BTW, my favourite is No.6, my choice of Pettersson Symphonies narrows down 6-9.
With Symphony No. 6 (cpo), people should listen to 34:00 or better 37:30. And the end, somewhere after 57:30. Then you know, not having known Pettersson #6 is a wasted life.

Quote from: vandermolen on January 18, 2008, 08:40:39 AM"the long struggle towards the sunrise" as one writer put it.
Really?
My idea of the symphony honestly is "the long struggle towards the sundown".

vandermolen

I think that No 6 ends with a sense of (very) hard won triumph, so I think that "sunrise" is appropriate. But, as with all great music (and it is great) it is open to different interpretations.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).