Pettersson's Pavilion

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

I think that No 6 ends with a sense of (very) hard won triumph, so I think that "sunrise" is appropriate. But, as with all great music (and it is great) it is open to different interpretations.

To me it's "teh saddest part evar!!!11", sun going down, funeralistic...

So, tadaaaa! People, time to listen to this great ending of a great piece of music and time to judge by yourself! Have fun!
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/pettersson6ending.mp3[/mp3]

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

To me it's "teh saddest part evar!!!11", sun going down, funeralistic... Have fun

Just listened to it. "Have fun"!? Taken out of context, judged purely on its own, the music sounds very disconsolate, funereal and sombre - to use only three adjectives... No sunshine in sight. If this is a ray of light, how dark is the rest?!

So, on this one, I am with you, Wurstwasser.

Johan

[vandermolen]

Just listened to it. "Have fun"!? Taken out of context, judged purely on its own, the music sounds very disconsolate, funereal and sombre - to use only three adjectives... No sunshine in sight. If this is a ray of light, how dark is the rest?!

So, on this one, I am with you, Wurstwasser.

Johan

I didn't mean the very end but the section just before the end which (to me at least) suggests some kind of hard won triumph against the odds...it is hardly the end of Nielsen's 4th I agree, but the snare drum is now in the background as the beautiful theme asserts itself, as if climbing upwards (towards the sunrise  )

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I didn't mean the very end but the section just before the end which (to me at least) suggests some kind of hard won triumph against the odds...it is hardly the end of Nielsen's 4th I agree, but the snare drum is now in the background as the beautiful theme asserts itself, as if climbing upwards (towards the sunrise  )

You confirm what I already thought whilst listening - that the 'lift' and a sort of breakthrough of light had occurred moments earlier.

I listened to the Seventh Symphony this afternoon. What did I hear, what struck me? The alternation of darkness and light - very murky and depressed music vs. bleakly radiant lyricism. There are a few recurrent elements with which Pettersson build his whole fluid edifice: a rising phrase, a descending one, a syncopated brass motif. You glide through a succession of soundscapes. There is an enormous tension there, and you never know what you will see when you turn another corner. The orchestral sound is not massive, but very spare. Also - the music is very horizontal, very linear, no complex interweaving of ideas. I see the music as a thin line, stretched to breaking-point. The climaxes are intimidating and uncomfortable - not triumphant, more aggression born out of powerlessness.

The next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light 

I don't love this music, yet. But Pettersson's lyricism is moving and pure. And a necessary relief.

Johan

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

The next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light 

Congratulations, you'll especially listen to the most soulful compositions in musical history. You'll be hopefully very impressed with 37:30 ff (cpo release) ....'nuff said. The whole work is a gem.

[paulb]

You confirm what I already thought whilst listening - that the 'lift' and a sort of breakthrough of light had occurred moments earlier.

I listened to the Seventh Symphony this afternoon. What did I hear, what struck me? The alternation of darkness and light - very murky and depressed music vs. bleakly radiant lyricism. There are a few recurrent elements with which Pettersson build his whole fluid edifice: a rising phrase, a descending one, a syncopated brass motif. You glide through a succession of soundscapes. There is an enormous tension there, and you never know what you will see when you turn another corner. The orchestral sound is not massive, but very spare. Also - the music is very horizontal, very linear, no complex interweaving of ideas. I see the music as a thin line, stretched to breaking-point. The climaxes are intimidating and uncomfortable - not triumphant, more aggression born out of powerlessness.

The next symphony I'll be listening to - the Sixth, to check the light 

I don't love this music, yet. But Pettersson's lyricism is moving and pure. And a necessary relief.

Johan

Well expressed comments.
The 7th seems to be the sym that most come to discover Pettersson. But don't expect to have moments like the resolution in the middle of the 7th in other syms. Its not there. Not sure if anyone can say they love pettersson. He is not writing to win popular vote.
Not sure what you mean by lack of complex ideas.
Sure pettersson has one main motif that seems to shine through all his syms, some sort of struggle and challenge. Pettersson apparently knows something very deep, but its up to the listener to figure out what his message is.
i know, but will not say.
Just heard most of the 6th , and had to run out for an errand.
i'm back and its now in the first half.
Seems Wurst has been struck deeply with the 6th ,and I have to admit the 6th is one of the darkest  most powerful of the syms to strike me as well.
Seems as though anyone can get through the 5th with no shocks to the mind.
the 6th is like a  passage way, if you can make it past the 6th, then you can easily make it through the others.
Had i not been around Sibelius for some 2 decades , its doubtful I would have taken to Pettersson like I did. Pettersson came to me at a  turning point in my life journey, at age 46. He hreatly helped  my life by giving me comfort in  some intense inner struggles.

Pettersson's syms are unlike any other symphonist.
Mahler and Pettersson have slight similarities, but are quite opposed in structure. Mahler takes a  very long time to get his idea across, Pettersson strikes chords right at the first notes. You know what you are in for at the first notes. Closest in character and style are Hartmann, who i need to get more familar with, and Schnittke. I think Shostakovich had influences on all 3 composers with the ground breaking 5th sym/1937.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Not sure what you mean by lack of complex ideas.

Pettersson came to me at a  turning point in my life journey, at age 46.

I didn't write 'lack of complex ideas', Paul, but 'no complex interweaving of ideas', by which I mean polyphony, density, several things going on at the same time.

I'm 46, a turning-point of sorts may be looming (finishing a first novel, and the subsequent publication). We'll see whether Pettersson will play as big a role in my life as he very clearly does in yours...

Johan

P.S. The Sixth will be my Pettersson fare tonight. I have the Trojahn and the Kamu. Any preference?

[paulb]

I didn't write 'lack of complex ideas', Paul, but 'no complex interweaving of ideas', by which I mean polyphony, density, several things going on at the same time.

I'm 46, a turning-point of sorts may be looming (finishing a first novel, and the subsequent publication). We'll see whether Pettersson will play as big a role in my life as he very clearly does in yours...

Johan

P.S. The Sixth will be my Pettersson fare tonight. I have the Trojahn and the Kamu. Any preference?

Yes i see what you mean. Pettersson seems to have one main idae that is reflected in all his 6-15 syms.
The 12th with the poem may help understand what Pettersson is trying to say, if you fail to understand his messages.
I have someone working on a  english translation now.
may bea   few weeks yet.
I'll try to get a  copy posted here. But i need to know how to load an image from my computer's scan files.
Do I need to subscribe to a  outside source in order to load?

The 6th offers no rays of sunlight, its bleak all the way through.

The Kamu is on LP , yes?
The Trojahn is exceptional. I fail to understand why Segerstam did not go on to record the 6th, he would have offered us another excellent option fora   6th.
I'm not complaining, just like to have at least 2 copies of each sym.
Segerstam instead of finishing the Pettersson cycle went on to record yet another Sibelius cycle, his 2nd, for whatever reason i do not know.
I heard his health as not all that strong, I'd love to see him finsih the cycle wth BIS. His 8th I slightly prefer over the CPO excellent  8th. has the 10th also, but slightly prefer the CPO. "slight" meaning there are a  few passages which pull me in favor of one over the other.

[mikkeljs]

Pettersson came to me at a  turning point in my life journey, at age 46. He hreatly helped  my life by giving me comfort in  some intense inner struggles.

The same here. I think Shostakovich had a greater influence at me, but probably because I own cd´s with most of his music, and have only heard Pettersson from the library cd´s. But I think Pettersson is the absolutely most helpful therapy for depression.

[paulb]

The same here. I think Shostakovich had a greater influence at me, but probably because I own cd´s with most of his music, and have only heard Pettersson from the library cd´s. But I think Pettersson is the absolutely most helpful therapy for depression.

Yes, I think its fair to use the common day fair, "depression", as its just about epidemic in late 20th C big city society.
The one thing Pettersson and I have in common is the "bad father",... "dead -beat" would be putting it too  kindly. But there's more to him that i find also in sympathy in my weltanschauung, meaning outlook/understanding  on life.
In Pettersson I really found that specific voice that gives meaning. expression  to things hidden deep within me , all these yrs.

[greg]

It will take some young new conductors to come on the podiums to bring forth works of Hartmann, Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter. Young conductors that wield a  baton of iron and won't take no sh*t from any board of regents, as to what to perform and not.

hell yeah 

[paulb]

hell yeah 

I'm really fishing deep-sea here.
Hoping we've got a  few up-N-comming conductors who peek in from time-to-time, and that actually take an interest in what the distinguished GMG avant garde members have to say about late 20th C music in regard to "programmed-programming" in the concert halls...BLAH . And along with you say 'hell yeah" too.
Like planting a  seed and watching it grow.
There's this old ancient idea that whatever is made in written, even spoken word, has some affect on the world beyond the speaker's limited horizon.
like C Columbus saying "we will find The New World" and look at what happened.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just listened to the Sixth under Okko Kamu, an LP rip I found on Usenet two years ago.

This symphony seems to end where the Seventh starts - there is, throughout the Sixth, that same 'syncopated brass motif' I mentioned earlier. My remark about that work - that it has no 'complex interweaving of ideas' - does not apply to this one: the Sixth is very layered. I find its structure more compelling than that of the Seventh (mind you - these are my first impressions!) The opening is wonderful. Those passionately singing strings are a returning and very appealing feature of the Sixth. But there is also something titanic, granitic about this symphony. You have the sense of an enormous struggle. Some passages have a frightening intensity. I agree with Vandermolen about the 'hard-won triumph' - there are several passages of great nobility that really give you the feeling of Pettersson attaining some kind of tranquility or acceptance. I found listening to the Sixth satisfying in a very deep sense but because of this also quite draining.  Not something I want every day.

All in all - a really great work.

I'm starting to get my Petterssonian bearings.

Johan

[paulb]

Just listened to the Sixth under Okko Kamu, an LP rip I found on Usenet two years ago.

This symphony seems to end where the Seventh starts - there is, throughout the Sixth, that same 'syncopated brass motif' I mentioned earlier. My remark about that work - that it has no 'complex interweaving of ideas' - does not apply to this one: the Sixth is very layered. I find its structure more compelling than that of the Seventh (mind you - these are my first impressions!) The opening is wonderful. Those passionately singing strings are a returning and very appealing feature of the Sixth. But there is also something titanic, granitic about this symphony. You have the sense of an enormous struggle. Some passages have a frightening intensity. I agree with Vandermolen about the 'hard-won triumph' - there are several passages of great nobility that really give you the feeling of Pettersson attaining some kind of tranquility or acceptance. I found listening to the Sixth satisfying in a very deep sense but because of this also quite draining.  Not something I want every day.

All in all - a really great work.

I'm starting to get my Petterssonian bearings.

Johan

Johan , excellent comments and insights to the nature of the work.
The 6th is the darkest of the all. So you've made it..
The 8th is no "piece of cake' but has moments of positive hope.
You are the kind of listener that should hear the 12th Caprice and not the less effective chorus of the CPO.
But the used copies go for $30, worth it IMHO.
If i were on better times and the ask was double, I'd snap it up. I'm glad i did all my Pettersson research/collecting yrs ago when i had spare $'s. cant recall what i paid, like $35 ,4 or 5 yrs ago.
when i get into a  composer i really like, I go deep into research and money is no object for OOP essentials.
I buy few cds now-a-days, the hard work is all behind me.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Johan , excellent comments and insights to the nature of the work.
The 6th is the darkest of the all. So you've made it..
The 8th is no "piece of cake' but has moments of positive hope.
You are the kind of listener that should hear the 12th Caprice and not the less effective chorus of the CPO.
But the used copies go for $30, worth it IMHO.
If i were on better times and the ask was double, I'd snap it up. I'm glad i did all my Pettersson research/collecting yrs ago when i had spare $'s. cant recall what i paid, like $35 ,4 or 5 yrs ago.
when i get into a  composer i really like, I go deep into research and money is no object for OOP essentials.
I buy few cds now-a-days, the hard work is all behind me.

Paul - I have the Caprice 12th... I was very lucky that a few posters in a Usenet newsgroup uploaded most of Pettersson's music two years ago (downloading for personal use is allowed in the Netherlands). I discovered Pettersson 20 years ago through a book, called 'Opus est', by Paul Rappoport, a music critic for Fanfare (and a great Brian scholar). 'Opus est' discussed 6 symphonists from Northern Europe, one of which was Allan Pettersson. I always remembered this, and as I have an open mind I snapped up all the Pettersson I could get from Usenet. But as I said a few posts earlier, I didn't 'get' Pettersson. Through you and other members of this great Forum I have finally started to crack the code.

[greg]

like C Columbus saying "we will find The New World" and look at what happened.

interesting.... and to that i might add that even one's own thoughts can affect one's own future actions, which affects others. In relation to music, you can write a piece of music, throw it away and it'll be forgotten for eternity, but you can then right something else and it may be indirectly influenced by that previous trashed work (because of the thought process that goes on when composing)- then the new work may affect a listener- even if you thought the music you threw away was just a waste of time 

[paulb]

Paul - I have the Caprice 12th... I was very lucky that a few posters in a Usenet newsgroup uploaded most of Pettersson's music two years ago (downloading for personal use is allowed in the Netherlands). I discovered Pettersson 20 years ago through a book, called 'Opus est', by Paul Rappoport, a music critic for Fanfare (and a great Brian scholar). 'Opus est' discussed 6 symphonists from Northern Europe, one of which was Allan Pettersson. I always remembered this, and as I have an open mind I snapped up all the Pettersson I could get from Usenet. But as I said a few posts earlier, I didn't 'get' Pettersson. Through you and other members of this great Forum I have finally started to crack the code.

Very enlightening story. Thanks for sharing. i'm logging in all the notes as to how folks cmae around to Pettersson. interesting. You came to P somewhat like i did. Short story on that later.
So you do have the 12th. i think you are much more capable of giving a  more musical descriptive approach to your review that i ever could in the Caprice and CPO.
Sice i know you have no intentions of obtaining the CPO , I will have to order it and promptly mail to your address.
This way we can all claer up this question, "does the 12th belong in the cycle or not?"
The CPO may not offer the angst which is so much apart of  the 6-15. The 12th has this character of struggle, suffering, resistene to something much greater than oneself. something to overcome, which is somewhat the main themes flowing  throughout the syms.
Give me a   few weeks, and i'll get it to you
For some reason I wanted to keep the 12th separate from the group of "pure orchestrated syms', but there's no reasons to do so. The high emotional content and exquisite scoring for chorus and orchestra, draws a  conclusion that the 12th is part of this high creative movement going on  within Pettersson's mind.

Your review/comparison of the 2 will offer a  more convincing  opinion that i ever could.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Paul, don't order! I have the CPO too... And I will review both performances when I reach No 12... The Tenth and Fifteenth I'll have to download from eclassical. But that's cheap.

Thanks for your compliments. And for your kind offer!

Btw - my reading of PR's book dates from around 1980, so it's almost 30 years ago, not 20...

[paulb]

Paul, don't order! I have the CPO too... And I will review both performances when I reach No 12... The Tenth and Fifteenth I'll have to download from eclassical. But that's cheap.

Thanks for your compliments. And for your kind offer!

Btw - my reading of PR's book dates from around 1980, so it's almost 30 years ago, not 20...

Great! You do have both. I have only heard clips of the CPO 12th, so nothing substantial in ways of solid comment,
Right Karl   , and yes i've kicked the old clip habit many moons ago. Only reason being my collection is near complete.

WOW 30 yrs ago, you heard the name Pettersson, but as you say 'mere chance". But is life just "mere" chances?
I'll have to tell one day how I came by slim chance upon Pettersson way back on the old CMG forum.
25 yrs ago, I use  to flip page after page of the Schwann's complete listings catalogue, the one like 6 inches thick,,,,my mind would race with the thought...."now i know there is some few composers in here that i really ought to know,,,but how to find the needle in the haystack?"....fast forward to 2000 and came upon Pettersson and Schnittke.
Keep in mind back in 1979, there may have only been 3 or 4 listings of Pettersson and a few Schnittke for that matter. made the quest an impossibility. unless like you with the book you got ahold of.
Beethoven had like 50 or so pages!

I should mention this story of how Lenny at Tulane's copy of The Complete Listing Of All C Composers, had like 500 or so in the P section...as we walked over to that book together i said 'yeah he's really not too known, a  real hidden composer, off the main street"....Lenny is busy looking at P, Pe, Pet, Pett..."Hey there's no listing for Pettersson".
I think Lenny was convinced on the "unknown" as it applies  to Pettersson's status among composers.

Bring out the 12th near the end of your listening cycle. If your opinion differs too much from my hunch, I'll have to order it myself and make a  comment.
I think the Caprice 12th deserves the effort of comparing, and worth my efforts due to the depth of the score which has to expressed in a  recording, not to be missed.

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

Jezetha, I like the Trojahn/CPO release of #6 much more, but good you started...
Yes, I listened to Sym. No. 6 about ten million times in 2005-2006...As often as I could afford it. It's catching from the very beginning. The simple and dark theme in the beginning (and later in the symphony) ... great.

Here's another teaser for Pettersson Symphony No.6.
I'd say it's the central and most important part of the symphony.

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/p6_37.30.mp3[/mp3]