Pettersson's Pavilion

Started by BachQ, April 08, 2007, 03:16:51 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ephemerid

Quote from: paulb on February 09, 2008, 05:51:46 PM
I would tend to say , if one is a  Shostakovichian, one is also a  Petterssonian, even if that Shostakovichian has yet to hear a  Pettersson sym.

Based on my limited exposure to Pettersson, I would have to agree.  There are differences, that goes without saying, but yes, they are definitely in the same "spirit." 

As far as Shostakovich symphonies go, I love the 10th-- a solid thematic structure that, like Pettersson, is very rugged & mountainous. 

Pettersson's 11th symphony is a tougher nut for me to crack.  I can't make any substantial comments on it, something I'll have to listen to over a long period of time here & there before I can find my way inside the music. 

Next payday I intend to get No. 8 & No. 10 though.  Hearing the 7th is enough to make me want more & my ears are convinced he's a solid composer to be sure.

Just a few more notes to share on the 7th:

I found my way into the 7th a bit unexpectedly.  If a piece of music has great emotional depth (whatever that is, I know it when I hear it I guess) I usually have to listen to a piece at least a second time to move me in a substantial way, so it surprised me in at least a couple of moments where I actually cried on the first go round!  One of those places is the quiet hymn-like string section around the 29 minute mark, but specifically it has to do with the context of that passage in the midst of such anguish. 

Earlier on, around the 11 minute mark is a very stoic passage for brass (lots of strong brass in Pettersson) and there is almost an attempt to disrupt this theme again and again but the brass continues on regardless. 

Right at the 15:40 mark was also an extraordinarily powerful moment, a sort of epiphany in the music, a momentary release from the tension.

The dirge at the end is really great too...

The 7th reminds me of Kurosawa's great film, Ran-- its absolutely monumental, but its also an emotionally & physically exhausting experience.  Shostakovich can often be that way too.  Heavy stuff, but VERY rewarding. 

Grazioso

Quote from: Ephemerid on February 09, 2008, 07:17:09 PM
Based on my limited exposure to Pettersson, I would have to agree.  There are differences, that goes without saying, but yes, they are definitely in the same "spirit." 

I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Ephemerid

Quote from: Grazioso on February 10, 2008, 04:47:27 AM
I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.
True, true -- good point. 

paulb

Quote from: Grazioso on February 10, 2008, 04:47:27 AM
I'd question that. I admittedly haven't heard as much Pettersson as DSCH, but the latter often uses irony or flippancy to undermine or counter his more serious moods, whereas Pettersson seems unremittingly serious. Pettersson's music also strikes me as more intimate and personal and revealing. Nonetheless, from the (simplistic) standpoint of "Shostakovich=dark" and "Pettersson=dark", yes there's common ground that should unite admirers of both.

Good post

Shostakovich is well known for his sarcastic and tongue in cheek jokester, especially most the sq's, and particuliarily sym9, somewhat sym 6, and maybe a  few others places.
His best syms 5,7,8 are testimonies of the brutalities of fascist russia and Stalin.
Pettersson and his mother was brutalized by his father and the slum society he grew up in. Shostakovich from what I recall had as  good mother, and I imagine a well behaved father, and did not grow up in a   slum. I guess Shostakovich suffered with some degree of poverty, as did Pettersson. And I also see Shostakovich in the syms as more objective in feeling. From a  Jungian standpoint Shostakovich speaks more from a a epistemological externalist approach and Pettersson has a  tendency from a  epistemological internalist expression. Though it is fair to say both composers overlap in these 2 perspectives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalism_and_externalism


Shostakovich syms depict the machine's brutal asssults on the individual and the many who are crushed by this inhumane monster, and allows glimpses of hope to shine through.
Pettersson also deals with this insidious monster threatening the individual, but more from the perspective of the individual enlightened soul. As we know from greek mythology, Orpheus,  and Plato, there is the univerasal soul of mankind and the individual soul but one that is awake, seeking  a  means of salvation (not in the christian meaning). Pettersson has both aspects in mind, man's over-soul and his birth place Mother Earth, and that distinct individual awakened soul which is strugglingly for liberation in the face of overwhelming injustice and brutalities.


BachQ

Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 07:47:30 AM
Listened to Pettersson 15 today for the first time ....... and I must say I'm extremely impressed.  Sym. No. 15 seldom receives prominent mention ......... but it's a masterpiece .........



Chris Forbes ("weirdears" on the old board) wrote this about Pettersson's 15th Symphony @Amazon:

It was typical during the sixites and early seventies for critics and composers to decry the "death of the symphony" either with glee or despair depending on the outlook of the speaker. Serialists of the Boulezian persuasion saw in the death of the symphony a similar death of the "old order" exemplified by German Idealism and the romantic spirit which they believed was responsible for the eventual atrocities of the twentieth century. Others of a more conservative outlook saw the rise of serial techniques and it's experimental forms as a rejection of Romantic aesthetics and their emphasis on the emotional content of music and saw this as evidence of the further "dehumanizing" effect of science on contemporary humanity. But unbenounced to either faction, there was a cadre of lone, but powerful voices which determined to keep alive the flame of the symphonic tradition. This cadre was often underrecognized, partly due to geography and partly due to political and social reasons. One of the most powerful of these "new symphonic" voices was that of Allan Pettersson.

Pettersson was one of the great "outsider" voices of the twentieth century. Born in impoverished circumstances in one of the bad areas of Stockholm, Pettersson, like the English Havergal Brian before him, had to suffer the indignaties of class prejudice in a society that had a hard time believing anything good could come from any member of the class which Pettersson represented. The composer was an accomplished violist and in fact made his living as an orchestral musician. But his compositional training was also impressive. He spent several years studying in France with figures such as Rene Liebowiz, the great apologist for the Second Viennese school. Though his studies with such figures didn't not succeed in any traditional way, they left a mark of rigor and intellectualism in the composer's work that has often gone undetected. When he returned to Sweden, Pettersson began a series of symphonic compositions which were unprecedented in the history of 20th century music. His work was modernist, and yet not arid in the way that so many post-war serialists could be. He was not afraid of tonality, and in fact, all of his works, even the most difficult always resolved to some tonal center, even if that center was strained to the breaking point.

Each of Pettersson's symphonies is in a sense an autobiography. Each one also is a statement of protest and of global humanist ideals. In his world, issues of musical language...tonal or atonal...take a back seat to the overall emotional impact that he wishes for his symphonies. The works are cries of grief...of protest...and ultimately cries to God for the working out of justice and peace on the earth.

The 15th symphony is the product of a very great year for Pettersson, which saw not only this symphony, but the beautiful 14th symphony and several smaller works. All of the pieces from this period are characterized by a greater sense of lyricism. In comparison with the astringent 9th and 10th symphonies, or the passionate protests of Symphony No. 12, these works have a core of gentleness to them. Not that they are "easy" by any means. Pettersson's language is always uncompromising. Though not by any stretch of the imagination an atonalist, his music is characterized by a harsh and tragic sense of dissonance. Still this work is infused with song...literally. The basis for the work is several quotes from his semimal and autobiographical cycle the Barefoot Songs. Behind even the most angry and tense music you sense the spirit of these songs always about to break through to the surface. As a result the piece is alternately despairing and hopeful. It is a deeply human document and a profound call for the values of love and respect in a world that seems devoid of both.

The symphony is fairly short from a Petterssonian standpoint, lasting only 38 minutes in this version. The disc is rounded out by a work composed by conductor Peter Ruzicka. This work is developed from the fragments of the projected Symphony No. 17, left incomplete at Pettersson's death. In the best of circumstances it is hard to evaluate the completion of unfinished works by other composers. Questions still linger 40 years later about the "completion" of the Mahler 10th by Derrick Cooke....and even more so about the completion of Turandot by Alfano. So to my mind the only thing I will say about Ruzicka's completion of the Symphony No. 17 is that it works as music, though whether or not it is Allan Pettersson's music I won't say.

The performance on this disc is up to CPO's usual high standard. Ruzicka and the DDRO Berlin deliver a deeply felt and very moving rendering of Pettersson's symphony. The sound is uniformly excellent. The symphony is a worthy addition to CPO's already highly touted transveral of the Pettersson Symphonies. Though this is far from the most representative or moving of AP's 15 finished and available symphonies (No. 17 remained unfinished and No. 1 was withdrawn and presumably destroyed) it is still a wonderful disc and recommended to Pettersson completists and those who are interested in the composer but put off by his more astringent symphonies from 8 to 12.



paulb

Chris has a  good overall review, some good comments there.
Chris and i came to Pettersson by the same sym, same recording, as he told me 3 yrs ago. Was the 14th/Comissiona/label caprice?
Its a   good performance, but prefer the CPO.
However Chris came to Pettersson long before I did, when he was in his late teens if I recall he said.
I also may have made the connection with Pettersson in my 20's when i first came to CM, had I heard the 7th. But not the Dorati, i can't stand that 7th. Other of his syms  may have been a  challenge as i was at that time most into Ravel, Debussy, Mozart and Rachmaninov, Vaughan Williams 5th sym some Prokofiev and not much else , Easy listenings.
I came to P in 1999 or 2000.

Varg

Well, Paul, Shostakovich and Pettersson are my favorite composers... Shostakovich being a far, far (the echo keeps going ;D) second. Nah, not that far, but Pettersson is untouchable to me.

paulb

Quote from: Varg on February 11, 2008, 02:43:33 PM
Well, Paul, Shostakovich and Pettersson are my favorite composers... Shostakovich being a far, far (the echo keeps going ;D) second. Nah, not that far, but Pettersson is untouchable to me.

I agree. As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms , Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.
The Shostkovichians may find this difficult to believe or accept.
As you know Shostakovich has been a  powerful force on the world stage for over a  half a  century.
The name Pettersson has yet to be known.
Think about that.

But as you say its not right to compare the 2. Its like comparing Schonberg to Berg to Webern. Impossible in a  sense.
Here's  some deep connections I see
Debussy and Ravel
Shostakovich, Pettersson, i would like to place Alfred Schnittke along side these 2, but for some reason i hear Schnittke in a  category all by himself, same way  as I hear Mozart. I do not accept this association, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, though we see it too often for drawing a  category of superlatives.
The last close association is the 3 great second viennese, but with an added 4th composer
Schonberg, Berg, Webern, Carter

greg

Quote from: paulb on February 09, 2008, 01:38:46 PM

I've heard these type comments about Bruckner, Beethoven's and especially Mahler's syms. "I love _,_,_ movements, but not the _" But never about the Shostakovich 5,7,8 syms.


i have.... i wrote what i thought a long time ago on the listening thread and someone mentioned they could "sort of understand what i mean by that". I also haven't been moved by the 8th, and have listened twice...... the 5th took awhile until i could say that i actually like it. (so the 8th may take awhile too maybe)

greg

while we're on the subject of Shostakovich, I'm currently listening to this very very fine CD:


Quote# Trio for piano & strings No. 1 in C minor, Op. 8
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Stockholm Arts Trio

# Trio for piano & strings No. 2 in E minor, Op. 67
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Stockholm Arts Trio

# Suite of Romances (7) for soprano & piano trio, Op. 127
Composed by Dmitry Shostakovich
with Anita Soldh, Stockholm Arts Trio
Now, what is that theme during the last movement of the 2nd Piano Trio? Is that a theme from one of his or Bartok's SQs? I can't remember.

karlhenning

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 12, 2008, 06:51:58 AM
while we're on the subject of Shostakovich, I'm currently listening to this very very fine CD:

Now, what is that theme during the last movement of the 2nd Piano Trio? Is that a theme from one of his or Bartok's SQs? I can't remember.

Go back to the C Minor Quartet, Opus 110  ;)

Those Seven Blok Romances, Opus 127 are exquisite, too.

greg

Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2008, 07:12:28 AM
Go back to the C Minor Quartet, Opus 110  ;)

Those Seven Blok Romances, Opus 127 are exquisite, too.
ah, ok  ;D

yeah, that op.127 is undoubtedly a masterpiece!!!  :o
just finished it...... you can tell it's late Shostakovich, especially around the beginning where the singing sounds similar to in the 14th symphony. All 3 works on this disc are amazing, what a discovery!  :o

Varg

Quote from: paulb on February 11, 2008, 05:58:12 PM
I agree. As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms , Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.
The Shostkovichians may find this difficult to believe or accept.
As you know Shostakovich has been a  powerful force on the world stage for over a  half a  century.
The name Pettersson has yet to be known.
Think about that.

But as you say its not right to compare the 2. Its like comparing Schonberg to Berg to Webern. Impossible in a  sense.
Here's  some deep connections I see
Debussy and Ravel
Shostakovich, Pettersson, i would like to place Alfred Schnittke along side these 2, but for some reason i hear Schnittke in a  category all by himself, same way  as I hear Mozart. I do not accept this association, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, though we see it too often for drawing a  category of superlatives.
The last close association is the 3 great second viennese, but with an added 4th composer
Schonberg, Berg, Webern, Carter

Schnittke, really? I have his 8th symphony and i dont even listen to it anymore. But that's the only work i know of Schnittke. Maybe you could give me some recommendations? And what do you think about his 8th?

paulb

Quote from: Varg on February 12, 2008, 12:43:12 PM
Schnittke, really? I have his 8th symphony and i dont even listen to it anymore. But that's the only work i know of Schnittke. Maybe you could give me some recommendations? And what do you think about his 8th?


Sure, go to the Schnittke forum, there is a  great place to discover this *polystylistic* composer.


see ya on the Schnittke topic.






karlhenning

Paul, please; no one here is a "Shostakovichian" which is a notion you invented, as a projection upon others of the fanaticism with which you attach yourself to Pettersson.

Having said that:

Quote from: paulb on February 11, 2008, 05:58:12 PM
As much as i like most of Shostakovich's syms, Pettersson's syms strike deeper, the listening experience more gripping, more personal.

I can hear yet with my own ears, and I hear no such matter.

I certainly don't find Pettersson's symphonies "more personal."

And, in fact, I find Shostakovich's symphonies deeper and more gripping.

Let it go, Paul.  Say what you like to express appreciation for Pettersson.  You aren't going to make your point by any need to 'talk down' other composers, many of them greater than Pettersson.

paulb

Quote from: karlhenning on February 12, 2008, 01:49:07 PM


Let it go, Paul

Never.

I said no such thing that Shostakovich is *inferior* to Pettersson.
How i feel about both was said in an earlier post. It will stand.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

karlhenning

Quote from: paulb on February 12, 2008, 02:19:04 PM
It will stand.

It's an opinion.  Listen to you: it will stand.  You'd think you just built a monument.

Few opinions are made of marble.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2008, 04:30:17 AM
It's an opinion.  Listen to you: it will stand.  You'd think you just built a monument.

Few opinions are made of marble.

But they can be set in stone.  ;)

Ah well - during the 1980s Havergal Brian was my composer of the century. That's what enthusiasm and identification can do to you. I recognise it...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato