Pettersson's Pavilion

Started by BachQ, April 08, 2007, 03:16:51 AM

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offbeat

Tks Jezetha/Snyprrr

Must say never occurred to me to connect Pettersson to Bruckner but i suppose the massive structures are similar -a lot of Sibelius too i think - I dont want to be in a great hurry and rush through his other symphonies - think they need to be spaced out due to their complex nature-certainly a unique sound imo...

Lilas Pastia

Jezetha, Snyprrr,  Offbeat: it doesn't matter whether you hear 15 before 6, or the violin concerto (2) before symphony 7, or String Concerto 3 before symphonies 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11. Like Bruckner, you know when you've listened to a masterpiece: early, middle, or late.

Pettersson is one of those rare phneomenons of music. We're still collectively appraising his value and importance. It does't matter - at alll ! - that X, Y or Z said 'I told you so' earlier than the general public. As Mahler once said, 'My time will come'

I've reflected on his originality (sheer strangeness ), musical value ( heritage) and contemporary relevance -  Petterssom may be the biggest ticket draw for anyone attracted to post-1950 music.

There's no doubt that in retrospect, the atonal, serialists ans postwhatever have lost the battle.  Bartok,  Prokofiev, Ravel and Vaughan-Williams (yes, VW !!) have prevailed and their heirs, Shostakovich and Pettersson, have aroused the interest of the younger generation.  They have picked up the flame. In Pettersson's case, the batte seems to be a generation behind DSCH's . But I have no hesitation in hainling the outcome.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Some reflections on Mr. Pastia's thoughtful post. First, to declare my bias, I really don't much like the works of the dyspeptic Mr. P. I find the 7th Symphony tolerable, possibly the 8th as well; but the others I've heard just put me off with their long-winded, free-form, self-pitying ranting.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 06:17:39 PM
Petterssom may be the biggest ticket draw for anyone attracted to post-1950 music.

Is there any evidence for this? I've lived in several major cities with major orchestras, and I can recall a Pettersson symphony being programmed exactly once - in Chicago in the 1980s.

QuoteThere's no doubt that in retrospect, the atonal, serialists ans postwhatever have lost the battle.  Bartok,  Prokofiev, Ravel and Vaughan-Williams (yes, VW !!) have prevailed and their heirs, Shostakovich and Pettersson, have aroused the interest of the younger generation. 

In general I agree with the sentiment here - it's the "mainstream modernists" (i.e. not the hardcore atonalists, and not the neo-romantics) who have triumphed. Shostakovich, for instance, is ubiquitous. But Pettersson is not - and unlike Lilas, I'm fairly confident things will remain that way.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: snyprrr on December 09, 2009, 07:59:33 AMI especially like No.11, and No.10 is in the same way
You're probably not alone. Surely there are at least 2 or 3 more people on earth who like those symphonies ;) I only listened once to them. My thoughts were about torture...

vandermolen

I've always thought that his masterpiece was Violin Concerto No 2, the last few minutes of which are as moving a piece of music as any I have heard and connect directly to the heart of the listener (well, to me anyway!). (symphs 6-8 are my favourites)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

greg

Quote from: vandermolen on December 10, 2009, 09:21:09 AM
I've always thought that his masterpiece was Violin Concerto No 2, the last few minutes of which are as moving a piece of music as any I have heard and connect directly to the heart of the listener (well, to me anyway!). (symphs 6-8 are my favourites)
There was someone who used to say the same exact thing all the time about the ending of the 2nd Violin Concerto, so it's not just you (i don't think he posts here anymore).
Which makes me very much interested, since I've never heard it...

vandermolen

#426
Quote from: Greg on December 11, 2009, 09:09:39 PM
There was someone who used to say the same exact thing all the time about the ending of the 2nd Violin Concerto, so it's not just you (i don't think he posts here anymore).
Which makes me very much interested, since I've never heard it...

Both recordings are excellent. The CPO might be easier to find.

Here's a link to the CPO version on Amazon, which has a review (by me ;D)


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allan-Pettersson-Violin-Concerto-No/dp/B000L42J6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260696574&sr=1-1
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

snyprrr

Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 10, 2009, 08:36:04 AM
You're probably not alone. Surely there are at least 2 or 3 more people on earth who like those symphonies ;) I only listened once to them. My thoughts were about torture...

The Pettersson-Rubbernecking-at-the-Car-Wreck-Syndrome

offbeat

Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2009, 12:28:38 AM
Both recordings are excellent. The CPO might be easier to find.

Here's a link to the CPO version on Amazon, which has a review (by me ;D)


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allan-Pettersson-Violin-Concerto-No/dp/B000L42J6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260696574&sr=1-1
tks for that great review vandermolen - i was going for some of the symphonies next but maybe the violin concerto will have to come first  :)

greg


vandermolen

Quote from: offbeat on December 13, 2009, 07:51:14 AM
tks for that great review vandermolen - i was going for some of the symphonies next but maybe the violin concerto will have to come first  :)

Thank you  :)

I don't think you'll be disappointed. Those wonderful last few minutes put a kind of retrospective glow on the characteristically troubled and tortured earlier sections - I find it exceptionally moving.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Sef

Quote from: vandermolen on December 13, 2009, 11:37:51 PM
Thank you  :)

I don't think you'll be disappointed. Those wonderful last few minutes put a kind of retrospective glow on the characteristically troubled and tortured earlier sections - I find it exceptionally moving.
Although I quite agree with you about the ending, in all fairness you should mention that there is almost 50 minutes of trouble and torture to get through before you reach it! I've spent may happy(?) hours getting to grips with it myself.
"Do you think that I could have composed what I have composed, do you think that one can write a single note with life in it if one sits there and pities oneself?"

vandermolen

Quote from: Sef on December 15, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
Although I quite agree with you about the ending, in all fairness you should mention that there is almost 50 minutes of trouble and torture to get through before you reach it! I've spent may happy(?) hours getting to grips with it myself.

That's true, but I quite enjoy those sections too - in a kind of masochistic sort of way  :-\
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Sef

Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2009, 05:29:33 AM
That's true, but I quite enjoy those sections too - in a kind of masochistic sort of way  :-\
Greg - consider yourself warned. If you want to wallow in self pity this is perfect. May I suggest something lighter though if you actually suffer from depression as some of your diner comments might suggest.
"Do you think that I could have composed what I have composed, do you think that one can write a single note with life in it if one sits there and pities oneself?"

vandermolen

I've never agreed with the view of Pettersson's music displaying 'rampant self-pity' (first suggested by Robert Layton, I think, who obviously dislikes Pettersson's music). To me, it is about struggle, suffering, perseverance and in the case of the end of Symphony No 6, for example, final triumph against the odds - but maybe this is my own stuff! :D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Grazioso

Quote from: vandermolen on December 17, 2009, 12:50:45 AM
I've never agreed with the view of Pettersson's music displaying 'rampant self-pity' (first suggested by Robert Layton, I think, who obviously dislikes Pettersson's music). To me, it is about struggle, suffering, perseverance and in the case of the end of Symphony No 6, for example, final triumph against the odds - but maybe this is my own stuff! :D

Then it's my stuff, too. That's how I hear a good deal of Pettersson: a fierce struggle up from the depths, ending not in exultation, but at least in peace or a philosophical resignation to fate.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Velimir on December 09, 2009, 11:52:34 PM
Some reflections on Mr. Pastia's thoughtful post. First, to declare my bias, I really don't much like the works of the dyspeptic Mr. P. I find the 7th Symphony tolerable, possibly the 8th as well; but the others I've heard just put me off with their long-winded, free-form, self-pitying ranting.

Is there any evidence for this? I've lived in several major cities with major orchestras, and I can recall a Pettersson symphony being programmed exactly once - in Chicago in the 1980s.

In general I agree with the sentiment here - it's the "mainstream modernists" (i.e. not the hardcore atonalists, and not the neo-romantics) who have triumphed. Shostakovich, for instance, is ubiquitous. But Pettersson is not - and unlike Lilas, I'm fairly confident things will remain that way.

Pettersson is pretty much 'on the radar' of german concert programs. Witness the extant recordings, many of which emanating from various so-called provincial german towns. I'm not sure checking Pettersson's concert fortunes in the US market is the way to gauge his popularity. How many Piston, Harris or even Copland performances are there in the germanic countries ? Is that a reflection of the music's influence? IMHO, north american concert programs reflect the prevailing influence of some 20-50 years ago music making. The BSO-CSO-NYPO programming is probably the worst way to look at the influence or popularity of a 20th century composer.

IMHO a multinational forum such as this one gives a better indication of a composer's fortunes in the global village ;)

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 17, 2009, 07:11:24 PM
Pettersson is pretty much 'on the radar' of german concert programs. Witness the extant recordings, many of which emanating from various so-called provincial german towns.

You may be right about this. I'm too lazy to check, but maybe some of our Germany-based members could say something about this. This also may have something to do with the heavily subsidized world of German radio orchestras, which may not reflect listeners' actual demands.

QuoteI'm not sure checking Pettersson's concert fortunes in the US market is the way to gauge his popularity. How many Piston, Harris or even Copland performances are there in the germanic countries ? Is that a reflection of the music's influence? IMHO, north american concert programs reflect the prevailing influence of some 20-50 years ago music making. The BSO-CSO-NYPO programming is probably the worst way to look at the influence or popularity of a 20th century composer.

Again, you may have a point there. However, I didn't see any Pettersson being performed when I was living in Prague, nor have I seen any during 5 years in Moscow. Nor anywhere else, except that one Chicago event.

I think what set me off was your (implicit) claim that P. was heading toward a DSCH-like level of popularity. I see almost zero evidence for that.

QuoteIMHO a multinational forum such as this one gives a better indication of a composer's fortunes in the global village ;)

It gives a better indication of the preferences of a small group of classical music fanatics, who constitute a tiny sliver of the listening audience as a whole (sadly).
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

vandermolen

Quote from: Grazioso on December 17, 2009, 04:27:47 AM
Then it's my stuff, too. That's how I hear a good deal of Pettersson: a fierce struggle up from the depths, ending not in exultation, but at least in peace or a philosophical resignation to fate.

I agree very much with this.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Velimir on December 17, 2009, 10:01:50 PM

I think what set me off was your (implicit) claim that P. was heading toward a DSCH-like level of popularity. I see almost zero evidence for that.

It gives a better indication of the preferences of a small group of classical music fanatics, who constitute a tiny sliver of the listening audience as a whole (sadly).

Why do you think Mahler declared 'My time will come' ? ;)