Pettersson's Pavilion

[snyprrr]

I made a little survey of them somewhere or other. The 11th is his most sphinx-like symphony, doing its own thing without any real emotional reference. It's not his usual darkness and light journey, it floats along inscrutably neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but in a peculiar middle-ground which is unsettling in its own right. When the orchestra becomes antsy, it evens out afterwards and as a result is that there is less of a sense of journey in the music and more of a feeling of an episode in a larger picture. It has a similar ambiguous and other-worldly sense to it as, perhaps, Robert Simpson's 11th. The 15th is quite similar to the 11th and it doesn't rely on assault for its argument as -say- the 9th and 10th do. If the associations with a grey sky that I have with the 11th could be contrasted here, I find the 15th darker, intellectually, but not musically. It seems to be less ambivalent than the 11th, and in its Apollonian nature isn't as abrasive as some of his earlier works, but because it's very advanced into the composer's development, despite that lack of violence it's perhaps more alienating than the others simply due to the lack of a simple resolution to the argument.

I find the 14th to be his best symphony although I will concede that I can understand why most prefer his 6th and 7th (to name his two most "favourited" works as I perceive it). I find his later style to be more engaging because it doesn't need 'nice' parts: it must stand on its own two feet and the 14th I feel does this best while retaining the biggest scope for drama and the feeling of a journey travelled. It's similar in style to the 13th, but a lot more concise and slightly more thematically interesting. I find it easier to listen to without becoming sick of big tunes (over-familiarity with the three note motif in the 7th stops me listening very often) or depressed by the tone than the earlier works because by now the composer's style has become instead of based around emotion, more concentrated on orchestral technique and abstracted symphonic argument. The "collisions" that occur in the symphony are more exhilarating than gut-wrenching, and it keeps the music fresh for me personally. It also exposes the composer's more distinctive techniques due to them not needing to sound cathartic - for example the brass taking flight at 27:55 is starkly minimal with its supporting strings and growling underpinning from percussion and orchestra. Instead of thinking "wow that's sad", I feel "what a cool effect/scoring". The reason why I say I find this one the best is that as much as I enjoy the total abstraction of nos.10, 11 and 15, I find the 14th to be a decent compromise between the style of the 6th, and his later works. It has a few allusions to those works, a similar arc and while the days of Pettersson playing the Romantic are gone, there is much in common on a structural level.

This could probably be edited down to sound better but apologies for the laziness, I'm burnt out. Made a few clarity ones, though.

I think 11 is my fav.v. Shouldn't it rank up there with other 20min. single movement Symphonies?... maybe not Sibelius , but...

[Robert]

The first symphony of Pettersson is something he worked on for many, many years only to continue putting aside again and again. He left the work only in sketches, but, an interesting point I read from the conductor Christian Lindberg, is he must have felt a strong connection with the music for him to name the symphony after the first his second.

John

Is this a yes on the first.......

[Robert]

The general problem I have with Pettersson's later music is it's just relentless and seems to just go on and on with no kind of relief. Symphonies No. 6-8, and also Violin Concerto No. 2, have these moments of serenity and lyrical beauty that make the musical journey worth taking. If you can sit through say Symphony No. 9, then you're a much stronger person than I am. I haven't listened to the 11th, 14th, and 15th in quite some time, what are these symphonies like?

By the way, I own the whole set of symphonies on CPO and I've made my through the whole box already. I just can't remember much about the later symphonies other than what I said about them above.

Well then I guess I won't have to ask you how you feel about Morton Feldmans music

[Mirror Image]

John

Is this a yes on the first.......

I have never heard his first symphony. This recording is a world premiere.

[Mirror Image]

Well then I guess I won't have to ask you how you feel about Morton Feldmans music

Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.

[Lethevich]

My initial reaction to Pettersson was actually very favorable. The first symphonies I heard were the 7th and 11th with Segerstam/Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra. I think I'll always have a special place in my heart for the 7th, because I like the style of Pettersson's writing. That darkness and light contrast is an interesting one in his middle symphonies. One reason why I can't get completely onboard with Pettersson is because I find, too often, especially in remembrance of the later symphonies, that the music, as I said, just seems to go on forever, which, for me, seems pointless. The structure of the music may be fascinating for you or someone else, but structure alone doesn't make a piece work for me. It has to have more. I'm not opposed to tense, turbulent music, but it has to have a purpose. The thing with Pettersson is I think his musical argument became disengaging, especially in the 9th where it just seems to be endless note-spinning. There were some cool sounding sections in this symphony, but I just couldn't sit through it. It's not that I'm against his music, it's just that I find so much of lacking any clear direction and the orchestral effects only go so far. He's certainly a composer that I'm intrigued by, but only because I wonder why he chose to compose music in this manner. The general aesthetic of his music I find displeasing. There isn't much color, which I like in music. It stays almost in one frame of mind for the whole work, but it is that trilogy of the 6th, 7th, and 8th is where I agree that this composer had a special communicative gift and a sound that nobody else had. He worked in his own idiom for sure, but it seems that I'm much more interested in contrasts in music.

Given what you mention, I think you will like the 14th, it's his closest  to the "affective" undulations of the middle works. Pettersson is near-uniquely lacking in musical colour. I think it's because he is so rigidly symphonic in his thought, and consequently lacking in concerto grosso-style sections ("here is an instrumental duo/trio", "here's where the orchestra passes material to one another" and so forth) that you find in a composer like Mahler, that the music becomes about the architectural qualities rather than the intimate ones. Solos or chamber sections are almost always used to reinforce this feeling of a full orchestral display, and as a result are often written to sound cold.

Preferences will naturally depend on the listener's expectations. I used to be ambivolous to everything outside of nos.6 and 7 (for some reason I've never liked the 8th), and my change of mind didn't come from repeat listening, but from being familiar with the sound of those later works and turning to them when I felt that I was in the mood - and fortunately they clicked. Where I gained an interest with Pettersson as a technician was by the time I had seen several people dismissing the music on an aesthetic level, so tried to listen to it with the emotional aspect removed to see what it was like and found myself pleasantly surprised. More than most symphonists of his age, Pettersson's music has a strikingly individual quality, miles away from merely relying on the emotive post-Romantic angry rumbles, as if he were a less optimistic Shostakovich or something.

In a work that I find less successful, like the 9th or 13th, the length does become a problem. But overall the later works tend to be proportioned quite well and perhaps just await the right mood to enjoy. The 10th or 11th might act as gateways due to their brevity, though the first of those is more concentrated harshness than even the 9th. The 12th is outright attractive IMO, with an affirmative tone and attractive choral writing. Not the battleship grey work I was expecting.

Edit: I don't think that I addressed your points enough - I also felt that the later works went nowhere when I first got into Pettersson. I can't be so disingenuous as to claim that you will like them if you try harder, I think it's more that what I was looking for changed as I became weary of listening to the same works. It also helps to consider them as modernistic music rather than extensions of Romanticism; allowing them to offer their own logic, not neccessarily of a traditional course.

[karlhenning]

Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.

I'll take this elsewhere . . . .

[Robert]

I have never heard his first symphony. This recording is a world premiere.

Sorry about that. I thought you purchased it...

[Robert]

Loved Rothko Chapel, haven't bothered exploring anything else for whatever reasons.

I also like Rothko.  I happen to like him.  I just need the time and Patience.... 

[Robert]

I'll take this elsewhere . . . .

Karl,

need I ask? 

[Mirror Image]

Sorry about that. I thought you purchased it...

I did purchase it, but I haven't received the recording yet in the mail.

[Mirror Image]

Given what you mention, I think you will like the 14th, it's his closest  to the "affective" undulations of the middle works. Pettersson is near-uniquely lacking in musical colour. I think it's because he is so rigidly symphonic in his thought, and consequently lacking in concerto grosso-style sections ("here is an instrumental duo/trio", "here's where the orchestra passes material to one another" and so forth) that you find in a composer like Mahler, that the music becomes about the architectural qualities rather than the intimate ones. Solos or chamber sections are almost always used to reinforce this feeling of a full orchestral display, and as a result are often written to sound cold.

Preferences will naturally depend on the listener's expectations. I used to be ambivolous to everything outside of nos.6 and 7 (for some reason I've never liked the 8th), and my change of mind didn't come from repeat listening, but from being familiar with the sound of those later works and turning to them when I felt that I was in the mood - and fortunately they clicked. Where I gained an interest with Pettersson as a technician was by the time I had seen several people dismissing the music on an aesthetic level, so tried to listen to it with the emotional aspect removed to see what it was like and found myself pleasantly surprised. More than most symphonists of his age, Pettersson's music has a strikingly individual quality, miles away from merely relying on the emotive post-Romantic angry rumbles, as if he were a less optimistic Shostakovich or something.

In a work that I find less successful, like the 9th or 13th, the length does become a problem. But overall the later works tend to be proportioned quite well and perhaps just await the right mood to enjoy. The 10th or 11th might act as gateways due to their brevity, though the first of those is more concentrated harshness than even the 9th. The 12th is outright attractive IMO, with an affirmative tone and attractive choral writing. Not the battleship grey work I was expecting.

Edit: I don't think that I addressed your points enough - I also felt that the later works went nowhere when I first got into Pettersson. I can't be so disingenuous as to claim that you will like them if you try harder, I think it's more that what I was looking for changed as I became weary of listening to the same works. It also helps to consider them as modernistic music rather than extensions of Romanticism; allowing them to offer their own logic, not neccessarily of a traditional course.

I suppose I like music that has a little Romantic residue left in it. This is why I find 6-8 more of my speed because of their Romantic overtones. The music after these symphonies just doesn't hit me. I need relief in music. I don't like persistent anguish, which is what Pettersson's music represents to me. As I said, I like color and different approaches to harmony. I'm glad that you've found a composer you connect with. I've already found mine and his name is Charles Koechlin.

[snyprrr]

I'm not hearing anything about the Saxophone Symphony 16. I haven't heard it for years, but that was still pretty huge, no?

[canninator]

So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?

I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.

Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.

[Lethevich]

The earlier works are a little anonymous but inventive and particularly important in their post-Sibelian context. The later works lack melody and contrast compared to the middle trilogy - some dislike this, others do not (as the past few pages of this thread attest to).

If you interpret the darkness of the music as being in the presence of attractive moments being assaulted, then the later works will disappoint. If you mean it as a relentless grimness and hostility, then they have plenty of that. The exceptions are the 12th, which is a somewhat transcendent work, and the 16th, where the composer finally lets himself have a 'little' fun.

I enjoy most of the cycle but many don't find much of interest beyond 6-8. If you do want to go for a single disc to audition the works, I would suggest 10 & 11 or 14 - Youtube may help, of course.

[snyprrr]

So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?

I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.

Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.

5-8*

9

10-11/15

13-14

16

[canninator]

The earlier works are a little anonymous but inventive and particularly important in their post-Sibelian context. The later works lack melody and contrast compared to the middle trilogy - some dislike this, others do not (as the past few pages of this thread attest to).

If you interpret the darkness of the music as being in the presence of attractive moments being assaulted, then the later works will disappoint. If you mean it as a relentless grimness and hostility, then they have plenty of that. The exceptions are the 12th, which is a somewhat transcendent work, and the 16th, where the composer finally lets himself have a 'little' fun.

I enjoy most of the cycle but many don't find much of interest beyond 6-8. If you do want to go for a single disc to audition the works, I would suggest 10 & 11 or 14 - Youtube may help, of course.

That's very helpful, thanks. I'll skip 1-5 and the box. I'll pick up 8 and 13 or 14 and take it from there.

EDIT:Yep, just bought 8 and 13 (cpo) at about £6 a pop on amazon. I listened to the haunting viola at the end of 13 on youtube and that sold it for me.

[Mirror Image]

So I only have the 7th, I love its relentless darkness and now I'm in the mood for some more. Do I really need to buy the box? Is it all like that, one dark journey? If No's 1-5 are chirpy conga music and 10-16 are post-artistic highpoint noodling then I wonder whether I need them (not saying they are, it's just the darkness I'm looking for). I hear good things about 6-9 as a group. Are these the darkest and most stark of the cycle?

I see the box at around £60 but if I only need, say 7 and 8, for when I feel like plumbing the depths I'd be happy with just them.

Any advice hear on someone with good knowledge of this cycle would be most appreciated.

I wish I could share Sara's enthusiasm for Pettersson's idiom, but I cannot. As I have written many times, the 6th, 7th, and 8th are very fine as they contain these moments of light that give relief to constant onslaught of darkness. The 7th in it's slower sections are downright gorgeous, but also haunting. The 6th has this same kind of relief that happens towards the end that makes the journey taken that much more rewarding. The 8th, in two parts, has some wonderful, lyrical slow sections. The rest of Pettersson's symphonies don't do anything for me. I have heard them all and some of them more than others. The 9th is one of the most horrible atrocities he's ever created and I actually yelled out "What the hell were you thinking Pettersson?" about 10 minutes into it. Anyway, proceed with extreme caution. I don't mind dissonance, but when it's dissonance with no kind of rhythmic flexibility or gradual change in tone and it's just one chromatic scale after another, then I find this kind of approach colorless and trite.

The other person work I like is his Violin Concerto No. 2, which, again, like 6-8, have some beautiful, poignant moments.

[DieNacht]

Concerning the middle period symphonies: the 6th conducted by Kamu originally on CBS LP is more melodical in the playing than the CPO issue and can be digged up on the web. I find it much better than the CPO.

Dorati´s old Philips LP recording of the 9th is very different from the CPO with Alun Francis; Dorati slows down the music and spends almost 20 minutes more, which makes
the music much more attractive and less stressful. I don´t know if it can be digged up somewhere.

EDIT: Oops, I remembered the conductor name wrongly - it is Comissiona, not Dorati !

[Mirror Image]

Dorati´s old Philips LP recording of the 9th is very different from the CPO with Alun Francis; Dorati slows down the music and spends almost 20 minutes more, which makes
the music much more attractive and less stressful. I don´t know if it can be digged up somewhere.

Twenty more minutes of torture? I wouldn't give it the time of day. No thanks. The 9th is certainly one of the most horrible pieces of music I've ever heard.