Pettersson's Pavilion

[calyptorhynchus]

For me, the point of Petersson's music  is that it keeps on going, like a Bach fugue. It's irrelevant whether the the mood of the music is joyful or grim, the movement is the point.

[Mirror Image]

I think that's only a problem only if you have no other way to approach a work than expecting some kind of emotional drama. Granted, I myself finally cracked Pettersson's music during a particularly bad time in my life, but nowadays when I listen to his music I don't think of some "mood", but rather I simply admire the construction of these works: the memorable orchestration, the elaboration of a wide variety of material out of fairly simple motifs, and the interesting take on the single-moment form. For me, Pettersson is a step forward in the Nordic tradition, and there's a lot that appeals to someone who appreciates abstract modernism.

I've heard all the symphonies and some of them more times than I probably should have. Most of them weren't worth my time and therefore aren't worth the effort. If I don't feel something emotional from the music, then why am I listening? Music is supposed to move and touch us in ways no other artform can. I don't have anything against Pettersson himself. I think he was an intelligent person who very truthful in what he said, but I just don't particular like his form of musical expression. What his troubles were have no bearing on my judgement of his music. In the end, there's just not enough variety (rhythmically, harmonically, or melodically) in his music to keep me interested. Surely, you can't fault somebody for trying to get into his music and not enjoying it. There's so much music out there that I feel like Pettersson is just a waste of time for me.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Many thanks for some excellent contributions! Can't participate due to work, but I do read. 

[The new erato]

For me, the point of Petersson's music  is that it keeps on going, like a Bach fugue some of the posters here. It's irrelevant whether the the mood of the music is joyful or grim, the movement posting is the point.

Corrected.

And yes - I'm one of them.

[snyprrr]

The stormy weather, and a car ride, prompted me to pull out the CPO 13th. Normally, the car stereo has been acting verrry naughty lately, but today I was allowed to listen to the first 34 minutes of what sounded like an Absolute Masterpiece! The whole opening had a chamber delicacy that I didn't recall, and I thought of MI the whole time, saying, What are you talking about man? The most monstrous of Pettersson Symphonies is actually the Best Mahler Symphony Ever!!

But, the thing is (given the fact that we are hyper-focused on the 'self-pitying' aspect to the actual musical notes), is that as I was listening for anything I wouldn't like, I was bombarded with this most teeming life of beautiful information. I was taken aback by the sheer abstraction of AGP's 'invention' (and, that does seem to be a good word for his 'method'). There is nothing in the first 34 minutes that really reminded me of any of the 5-9 Symphonies. In a way, No.13 is a grand elaboration of the general mood of No.11, if I may? Please just give the first couple of minutes a spin and see if you're not 'surprised' by the delicacy of the big bad old grump.

I'll say that I almost found, in the most positive way, a very Xenakian quality here. Those who are familiar with, say, Kraanerg, I ask, can you hear the almost 'similarity' of abstract, 'universal distance'? Now, granted, I didn't get to the second half of the work, and I can't possible remember what the siren song in No.13 sounds like, but, the first half of No.13 something so wonderful that I can't believe I've been raggin' on poor AGP.

I found myself just wallowing in the 'information' (AGP's term), the sounds of the different instrumental groups and solos in a whirlwind journey. There's a wonderful amount of notes, just a cascading, tumbling, ever present need to keep going at any cost.

Please don't tell me I'm the first to listen to the 13th since we've been having this current back and forth. If I am, and none of you have pulled out the 13th in a long while, let me simply recommend the opening. Clear you mind, have time ready, and be open. Or, take an hour ride in a storm like I tried. I think those of us who haven't been considering the towering achievement of AGP's 13th Symphony should prepare a listen (don't rush). Perhaps start with the Symphonic Movement as an opener.

I liked it much better than the 6th, and, it's mood is in a totally different realm than that of the Middle Period Symphonies. I'd like to know when the last time anyone listened to Nos. 14 & 15? I remember liking 14 very much, and though I don't like 15 as much as I like 10-11, it makes a very nice disc-mate to No.3 on BIS. I think I'll spin 15 here now...


MI, you uncle called and said you have to put your big boy pants on and bust open a can of Pettersson Mania!! Feel the Burn!!

[Lilas Pastia]

You've at least convinced me to give the 13th an urgent spin  . Newer GAP recordings will wait. Will certainly give it a listen or two before leaving for the sunny shores of Providenciales Island

[Mirror Image]

I've heard the 13th, snyprrr. Again, my reaction to this work is negative, but while I'm here I do like some parts of Violin Concerto No. 2. It reminds me of the 6th-8th in the sense that there's great light/darkness contrasts throughout the work. This gives the music much more character than most of his other works which just stay in one frame of mind and don't offer the listener any kind of relief.

[vandermolen]

Thank you mr Wise Man. So do I. The release in the UK according to mdt, have been postponed until 1st Oct, so I'm still waiting for mine.

Thank you . My copy came from the UK via Amazon.

[vandermolen]

As usual Jeffrey you have put it superbly  . Just right. Nothing less, nothing more.

In a sense, Pettersson was supremely lucky. IMHO his music reigns by virtue of the unique conjunction of attributes derived from his dates, culture, musical education, geographic latitude and geo-political situation.  By the time he came to write his symphonies, Europe had freed itself from tyranny, only to be under the threat of another one. Science had advanced the prospects of a 'better society' only to be under the threat of nuclear annihilation. Science had discovered antibiotics and defeated the plague, TB, syphilis, but failed to cure common cold and the rheumatic arthritis that ruined Pettersson's life. Culturally, the northern european countries had produced a unique stream of art that viewed anxiety, pessimism and culpability as the foundation of their ethos. In music, tonality was giving way to atonality and a bevy of satellite techniques that all aimed at destroying the very foundation of music that had held sway since Palestrina. Pettersson was not in a position - or mood - to interact, adapt or react to the 'new' tenets of his art.

There are not many ways to put it. As a composer (artist) Pettersson was bred, taught, and composed music in an idiom cornered. He had but two choices: evolve, modernise and internationalise his idiom, or retreat toward his roots and trace his way forward from there. I'm not a musicologist and cannot pretend I know how Pettersson's musical style came to be. But judging from the outside I think he went for the second way. That may explain why he never found much sympathy in the modernist cycles.

'Trace his way forward from there' is another way to say that this artist's path has not really been figured out. Pettersson is still an enigma. We hear and recognise folk roots. We hear and recognise modernist harmonies. We hear and recognise a musical language that prefers not to resolve its conflicts. Maybe that's what Robert Layton unwittingly termed 'rampant self-pity'? A musical language that traced its roots backwards, chose not to evolve forward (Darmstadt-style) and instead retreated inward, where conflict resolution is but impossible: every gesture goes through rings and rounds of byways and dead-ends, inward spiral-like.

Pettersson's music is like going through a complex, 'Persona' or 'Steppenwolf' dream/nightmare/hallucination experience. Everything surprises, nothing has been experienced before, but it does belongs to one's inner world. It's impossible to find something logical in the way it unfurls, but it's just as impossible to pretend it's alien to who you really are. Unless you choose to close the gates to your inner self. Pettersson's music is one of those rare instances where the emotional, aesthetic reaction has to find an original resolution rather than through empiric correlations with other artists' experiences.  In that sense he is the antithesis of Bach and Brahms, who are the very summation of their respective eras.

The only other 'solar' figures I am aware of in music are Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach and Berlioz.

What an interesting discussion.

Your penultimate paragraph 'Pettersson's music...' hits it right on the head I think. I have not read a better analysis of the appeal of Pettersson's music to those of us who respond to it. 

[Karl Henning]

(given the fact that we are hyper-focused on the 'self-pitying' aspect to the actual musical notes)

Not I. I've always focused on the notes. Just saying.

I like Pettersson's term. I concede that what he wrote is "sonic information" ; )

[snyprrr]

Not I. I've always focused on the notes. Just saying.

I like Pettersson's term. I concede that what he wrote is "sonic information" ; )

But, what do you think of one saying that an actual note can be 'self pitying'? I mean, if you're playing an 'e minor' chord, and, on top of that, you are obsessively playing 'g-f#, g-f#. g-f#',... doesn't the human brain actually translate those 'abstract' notes into something 'sad'? And, in context, some listener may wonder 'who' or 'what' might this 'sadness' might be, and, lo and behold, the Composer of those notes was suffering great pain. So, is it not right to them ascribe the emotional content of those flimsy little notes, because, the emotional content really appears to be there: the Composer was sad, and wrote music that fellow humans recognized as 'sad', and the listeners deduced that the Composer was sad over...

Oh, nevermind. I KNOW that AGP is commenting on the world situation, and not necessarily only his own suffering, so, I have no horse in this race anyway.


So... yes, I hear No.13 as only abstract information,... though, I must admit that AGP's penchant for 'Oriental' sounding melodies DOES have that 'looking back on that what has been destroyed' feeling. I can't get around the MOOD: information, or not, this is 'deep' stuff.

[Mirror Image]

Bought the new Lindberg recording of Symphony No. 6. Anyway, I read through synprrr's comments about the later symphonies and I've decided to give them another spin. I will NOT listen the 9th again! Such a horrible work. I'm going to listen to 10-16 again in hopes of maybe getting something out of them. I'm not going to listen to all of these symphonies in one setting (obviously), but spread them out over the winter months. We'll see where this goes...

Synprrr, what is your favorite work by Pettersson?

[snyprrr]

Bought the new Lindberg recording of Symphony No. 6. Anyway, I read through synprrr's comments about the later symphonies and I've decided to give them another spin. I will NOT listen the 9th again! Such a horrible work. I'm going to listen to 10-16 again in hopes of maybe getting something out of them. I'm not going to listen to all of these symphonies in one setting (obviously), but spread them out over the winter months. We'll see where this goes...

Synprrr, what is your favorite work by Pettersson?

The first 3 minutes of No.8


Just make sure you listen on dark, cloudy, snowy days to maximize effect. Personally, I'd warn against trying too hard here, you may end up disliking AGP more? Start with No.11, probably my single favorite AGP work (that's easily digestible).

Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).

[The new erato]

Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).

You should try not to hide your insights (you've got plenty of them) in wisecracks (you've got plenty of them as well).

[Mirror Image]

The first 3 minutes of No.8

Just make sure you listen on dark, cloudy, snowy days to maximize effect. Personally, I'd warn against trying too hard here, you may end up disliking AGP more? Start with No.11, probably my single favorite AGP work (that's easily digestible).

Let AGP present himself to YOU, not the other way around (I don't know WHAT? that means, haha).

I've heard the 11th several times. I do enjoy it. Lovely introduction. It's a pretty short symphony for Pettersson. I listened to the 10th last night. Didn't think much of it. It went on and on with no purpose unlike his Symphonies Nos. 6-8 which present themselves as journeys from darkness to light or vice versa, although the 11th could be said to do this as well.

[snyprrr]

Remember I pulled out No.13 a few months back, and was really impressed with its... everything, I guess. So, I finally got the cd player fixed and hit No.14 (Commissiona (sic)). Wow, this is a 'pounder' for sure, and by pounding, I mean the bass drum! This is one hot 47min. mess! The anger is palpable, the tumult is near inexhaustible, and the contours are forever crashing into one another. This one is kind of hard to like on a sunny day; I would most certainly recommend this for Category 1: no less than 70mph winds, and property damage, for this one.

So, I followed up with about half of No.15, which continues on from 14 in like fashion. My theory is this: 13 mirrors 9, 14 mirrors 10, and 15 mirrors 11.

I was again amazed at the amount of notes cascading around in 14. HOW? could he write Symphonies of so many notes when he had the hands of Rondo Hatton? Pretty impressive.

Still, weather plays a big part in me enjoying Pettersson on-the-road. Too still today.


I haven't heard No.16, the massive Saxophone Symphony, in decades. I might have to find...

[snyprrr]

Remember I pulled out No.13 a few months back, and was really impressed with its... everything, I guess. So, I finally got the cd player fixed and hit No.14 (Commissiona (sic)). Wow, this is a 'pounder' for sure, and by pounding, I mean the bass drum! This is one hot 47min. mess! The anger is palpable, the tumult is near inexhaustible, and the contours are forever crashing into one another. This one is kind of hard to like on a sunny day; I would most certainly recommend this for Category 1: no less than 70mph winds, and property damage, for this one.

So, I followed up with about half of No.15, which continues on from 14 in like fashion. My theory is this: 13 mirrors 9, 14 mirrors 10, and 15 mirrors 11.

I was again amazed at the amount of notes cascading around in 14. HOW? could he write Symphonies of so many notes when he had the hands of Rondo Hatton? Pretty impressive.

Still, weather plays a big part in me enjoying Pettersson on-the-road. Too still today.


I haven't heard No.16, the massive Saxophone Symphony, in decades. I might have to find...

I refuse to let my listening of 14 to go to waste.

[Mirror Image]

I refuse to let my listening of 14 to go to waste.

Anything past the 8th and anything before the 6th is a waste IMHO. Pettersson only wrote three good symphonies with the 7th being the best of the lot.

[Sergeant Rock]

Anything past the 8th and anything before the 6th is a waste IMHO. Pettersson only wrote three good symphonies with the 7th being the best of the lot.

That is, roughly, the 126th time you've told us that    We get it!!!  You only like 6-8!!!     So, there really isn't any reason for you to post in this thread again, is there.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

That is, roughly, the 126th time you've told us that    We get it!!!  You only like 6-8!!!     So, there really isn't any reason for you to post in this thread again, is there.

Sarge

Well sure there's reason for me to continue post on Pettersson's thread: to declare my admiration of those three symphonies.