Haydn Piano Sonata 5

[Mystery]

What form would you say the second movement (Adagio) of Haydn's 5th piano sonata is? I have two thoughts - binary and sonata, but for the latter there doesn't seem to be much in the way of development. Any help?

[lukeottevanger]

The numbering system of Haydn' sonatas, as you probably know, is fraught with difficulties and disagreements; I have two complete recorded sets of the sonatas and their respective number 5s are not the same piece (one is in A, the other in G). On neither, though, is there an Adagio movement. I also have one set of the sonatas as sheet music, in which the number 5 is the one in A on the first of my recorded sets. Could you describe the sonata more fully - key, time signatures, tempi of different movements etc. - so that I can track it down. Meantime, I'll look through the scores and see if I can find the one you mean by the clues you've already given...

[lukeottevanger]

The only early Haydn sonata I can find with an Adagio second movement is the one numbered 6 in my sheet music; the movement in question is in G minor and I can see why you are unsure of the form - the formal divisions are a little blurry. So I suppose this is the one you mean. Without playing it through, it looks to me like a binary form piece, though. The second 'half' of the movement is longer than the first, and includes further modulations and 'developments', but although that doesn't tally with what the simple 'AB' description leads us to expect of binary form, it is in fact very typical. There is no distinct central development, set off from what precedes and what follows, and the return to G minor is not dramatised thematically or dynamically as it would be in a sonata form.

The distinction between the two forms is blurry, though, because sonata form as we usually understand it developed, in part, out of binary form (first section ending in dominant/relative major; second section approx twice as long and tonally discursive, ending in tonic).

The other thing to bear in mind, though, is that sonata form is really a post classical extrapolation based on what you could call the 'average' Mozart/Haydn first movement. Haydn himself didn't think in those terms; when writing a piece such as this movement he would therefore have been working primarily with the music itself and not with complex preconceived formal frameworks. That's why questions like the one you ask are in some senses a litte anachronistic, and don't chime with the way the music was actually composed; if you look at the piece on its own merits and not through formal grids which actually complicate things needlessly (trying to decide if bars x to y qualify as 'development' or not, etc.) the form is actually pretty simple.

There various distinctions of binary form, of course, (rounded, simple, etc) which are of varying degrees of usefulness. Wiki's page on them is quite clear, I suppose. According to the distinctions offered there, this piece is in simple (without a closing repirse of the opening), continuous (without a tonic cadence at the end of the first section), assymetric (with a longer B section), balanced (with a 'rhyming' cadence to each section) binary form To me, these distinctions, whilst useful, tend to suggest that, really, if both rounded and simple, continuous and sectional, symmetric and assymetric, balanced and non-balanced varieties of binary can be discerned and are viable (in other words - all possible variants of the form) it is just as useful to say that all that really matters to the composer, instead of these many classifications, is the basic principle of the two part form.

[Mystery]

Sorry about the confusion - I knew I shouldn't have written it like that. The sonata itself is in C major but the movement I am askign about is in F major. Does this help?

[Mystery]

The only early Haydn sonata I can find with an Adagio second movement is the one numbered 6 in my sheet music; the movement in question is in G minor and I can see why you are unsure of the form - the formal divisions are a little blurry. So I suppose this is the one you mean. Without playing it through, it looks to me like a binary form piece, though. The second 'half' of the movement is longer than the first, and includes further modulations and 'developments', but although that doesn't tally with what the simple 'AB' description leads us to expect of binary form, it is in fact very typical. There is no distinct central development, set off from what precedes and what follows, and the return to G minor is not dramatised thematically or dynamically as it would be in a sonata form.

The distinction between the two forms is blurry, though, because sonata form as we usually understand it developed, in part, out of binary form (first section ending in dominant/relative major; second section approx twice as long and tonally discursive, ending in tonic).

The other thing to bear in mind, though, is that sonata form is really a post classical extrapolation based on what you could call the 'average' Mozart/Haydn first movement. Haydn himself didn't think in those terms; when writing a piece such as this movement he would therefore have been working primarily with the music itself and not with complex preconceived formal frameworks. That's why questions like the one you ask are in some senses a litte anachronistic, and don't chime with the way the music was actually composed; if you look at the piece on its own merits and not through formal grids which actually complicate things needlessly (trying to decide if bars x to y qualify as 'development' or not, etc.) the form is actually pretty simple.

There various distinctions of binary form, of course, (rounded, simple, etc) which are of varying degrees of usefulness. Wiki's page on them is quite clear, I suppose. According to the distinctions offered there, this piece is in simple (without a closing repirse of the opening), continuous (without a tonic cadence at the end of the first section), assymetric (with a longer B section), balanced (with a 'rhyming' cadence to each section) binary form To me, these distinctions, whilst useful, tend to suggest that, really, if both rounded and simple, continuous and sectional, symmetric and assymetric, balanced and non-balanced varieties of binary can be discerned and are viable (in other words - all possible variants of the form) it is just as useful to say that all that really matters to the composer, instead of these many classifications, is the basic principle of the two part form.

Thank you for this helpful description, even if it doesn't describe the one I was thinking of! I have to label pieces by form for my analysis module and was just doing a bit of practice but got stuck! So even if Haydn didn't work to such a model (I will try to fit this into my answer if it's relevant!) I still need to show my knowledge of such forms.

[lukeottevanger]

Hmm, I can't track down an early Haydn sonata matching your description....

[BachQ]

Perhaps MYSTERY is referring to Sonata No. 48 In C Major Hob. XVI/48, whose 2nd movement is Adagio ......

[BachQ]

Personally, I always confuse the numbers 5 and 48 .........

[lukeottevanger]

No, nice try. No 48 is a two movement sonata, neither of them an Adagio. I think the one Mystery means is no 21, which is in C and has an Adagio in F as its second movement. Funnily enough, I also have this one in an old Schirmer score (vol II of their set) and guess what - it's the fifth one in the volume, here given the number 15. Perhaps the 'Mystery' is solved.

[BachQ]

No, nice try. No 48 is a two movement sonata, neither of them an Adagio. I think the one Mystery means is no 21, which is in C and has an Adagio in F as its second movement. Funnily enough, I also have this one in an old Schirmer score (vol II of their set) and guess what - it's the fifth one in the volume, here given the number 15. Perhaps the 'Mystery' is solved.

Well, Naxos has this listing in its VOL 5 of Haydn's piano sonatas: " Sonata No. 48 In C Major Hob. XVI: 35: Adagio"

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Sonatas-Vol-5/dp/B00000144T/ref=sr_1_3/002-2578474-8988060?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180373852&sr=1-3

[BachQ]

Maybe 21 = 48  .........

[lukeottevanger]

No, on this rare ocassion, all my scores, recordings and books agree that 48 is a two movement sonata Andante-Presto. John McCabe, in his book on the sonatas, suggests that the first movement could be thought of as an Adagio, but that's as far as it goes.

As for no 21, and to return to the orginal question, the Adagio is in sonata form. Again, though, we see that sonata form as AB Marx described it doesn't really help with this movement. What we have is

-Opening subject in F, cadencing on tonic
-Modulation to C (dominant)
-Second subject (really more a texture/rhythm than a defined theme, perhaps) in C

-Development, starting in C minor - in this case really the development is a modulation back to F; the melodic line doesn't appear to be derived from anything prior, but the phrasing and shape of the left hand's accompaniment obviously refers back to the 'second subject' and to the codetta theme which immediately preceded the double bar

-Recap. in F, this time with an interrupted cadence into D minor
-The modulating  passage of the exposition is replaced by a couple of sequential bars based on the patterns of the second subject, which include subdominant inflections as often found in sonata movements
-The second subject is now in F, as it should be. There is some rhythmic development.

[lukeottevanger]

Well, Naxos has this listing in its VOL 5 of Haydn's piano sonatas: " Sonata No. 48 In C Major Hob. XVI: 35: Adagio"

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Sonatas-Vol-5/dp/B00000144T/ref=sr_1_3/002-2578474-8988060?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180373852&sr=1-3

Ah, yes, that is quite confusing. The sonata you are referring to is Hob 35, sometimes given the (L) number 48. And it does fit Mystery's description too - an Adagio in F as the second movement. I don't see anywhere where it is called no 5, though....

However, and purely by coincidence Hob 48 (which is L 58) is also in C major. That's the two movement one I thought you were referring to!

Are you following?

McCabe thinks Hob 35 is a 'tiresome...banal' piece. He has this to say about the slow movement, which is relevant to Mystery, I think:

...matters are improved by a slow movement that is bigger and finer (with a second section obeying the basic sonata form tonal habits while being simply a developed repeat of the first rather than a true development and recapitulation)...

My own view is that this piece has a very simple form which again illustrates the unhelpfulness of some of our formal labels. It is in two balanced halves, with the first half presenting a first theme in F and a second one in C. After the double bar the first theme is not literally repeated but somewhat developed; then the second theme is repeated literally, but in F. There certainly are elements of 'sonata form' here in the use of two differentiated themes, the slight development and the tonal habits of the second half. McCabe suggests that the development, such as it is, isn't really a development section, just a developed repeat of the first theme; I think it is more than that, it is an incipient development section, including in this case: new rhythmic and thematic ideas, minor inflections, diminished sevenths. But if we decribe what is there, we see that he is right - the piece is binary: AB;A'B

[Mystery]

No, on this rare ocassion, all my scores, recordings and books agree that 48 is a two movement sonata Andante-Presto. John McCabe, in his book on the sonatas, suggests that the first movement could be thought of as an Adagio, but that's as far as it goes.

As for no 21, and to return to the orginal question, the Adagio is in sonata form. Again, though, we see that sonata form as AB Marx described it doesn't really help with this movement. What we have is

-Opening subject in F, cadencing on tonic
-Modulation to C (dominant)
-Second subject (really more a texture/rhythm than a defined theme, perhaps) in C

-Development, starting in C minor - in this case really the development is a modulation back to F; the melodic line doesn't appear to be derived from anything prior, but the phrasing and shape of the left hand's accompaniment obviously refers back to the 'second subject' and to the codetta theme which immediately preceded the double bar

-Recap. in F, this time with an interrupted cadence into D minor
-The modulating  passage of the exposition is replaced by a couple of sequential bars based on the patterns of the second subject, which include subdominant inflections as often found in sonata movements
-The second subject is now in F, as it should be. There is some rhythmic development.

No it's not this one either... firstly it has three movements, and secondly there is no move to C minor! The opening has a spread F major chord in the left hand, and the same at the end. Am I being totally incompetent here, or are you? ;-)

And guys, enough mystery jokes!!

[lukeottevanger]

If it's not 21, then its 35, the one D Minor suggested (but confused me about by refering to it as no 48,also in C!). That's the one I talked about in my last post! My answer to your question is to be found there.

Though, FWIW, no 21 is in three movements, and the Adagio also starts and finishes with spread chords!

[BachQ]

And guys, enough mystery jokes!!

Don't take it personally!

[Mystery]

OK well I'm now incredibly confused!

D Minor, I didn't, don't worry your little head about it! ;-) By the way, great name -it's my favourite key :-)

[Gurn Blanston]

OK well I'm now incredibly confused!

D Minor, I didn't, don't worry your little head about it! ;-) By the way, great name -it's my favourite key :-)

Don't flatter him, his head is actually incredibly huge as it is.

There is only one simple way to resolve this question of which sonata: if you have a Hob #, tell us that. Numbering systems are incredibly confusing, but Hob is Hob. Of course, if you don't have one, it will never be a sure thing.

[lukeottevanger]

OK well I'm now incredibly confused!

Understandable! The conclusion is, you are talking about the sonata usually called no 35. The movement in question is in binary form, albeit with elements of sonata form discernable (two distinct subjects; development; sonata tonal form). Haydn sonata expert John McCabe also describes it in this way.

D Minor, I didn't, don't worry your little head about it! ;-) By the way, great name -it's my favourite key :-)

Don't encourage him....

[lukeottevanger]

There is only one simple way to resolve this question of which sonata: if you have a Hob #, tell us that. Numbering systems are incredibly confusing, but Hob is Hob. Of course, if you don't have one, it will never be a sure thing.

It is Hob. 35; I've checked all the C major sonatas and 35 is the only one which fits his description (though 50 comes perilously close, only lacking the final l.h. arpeggio. Really Haydn had a limitied imagination  - of  the 8 sonatas in C I've checked,  three (21, 35 and 50) have F major adagio second movements starting with arpeggiated tonic chords.)

BTW, there are no Haydn piano sonatas in D minor to my recollection.