Weird, and sort of sad...

[Gurn Blanston]

Congratulations, you are both wrong.  Sure, at the beginning you're not going to know anything about classical...something more aesthetic will attract you to the music.  But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience. 

Once you've stayed on the surface for a little while, this music will beg to be explored further.  At some point there is no more sitting on the fence and the music will prove a great discriminator.  If you want something you can't get on local FM radio, if you ever want to  be able to discuss and expand your taste, if you want to make new synaptic connections in the brain, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MUSIC!!!!!!!  Anything less is failure.  I can't stand the bourgeois 'just enjoy it' pap.  Knowledge is empowerment. 

Dude,
That's all well and good if you've been listening for a while. But that's not the situation here at all. These people have never heard classical before (except O Fortuna in TV ads, of course ) and they are intrigued by what they hear. What the hell are you supposed to say? "Oh no, you're right, you ARE too stupid for this music, go back to hip-hop...". No, you say "if you like what you hear, then listen and explore. You won't always remain ignorant, but you can still enjoy the music while you are".  I bet I would convert a lot more people to classical with MY attitude than you would with yours...

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm sure NASA engineers couldn't boil water.  

Are you sure you aren't thinking of NASSA?

[Frumaster]

Are you sure you aren't thinking of NASSA?

Good one, I about fell out of my chair 

[Coopmv]

It is very hard for a society like the American society with a chronic attention deficit disorder to get into classical music in a meaningful way.  This genre requires patience and long-term appreciation for the timeless beauty many of the great compositions (not the warhouse pieces) such as WTC, Goldberg Variations and Beethoven Sonatas provide us.

[knight66]

The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.

How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.

Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.

Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.

How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.

Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.

Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.

Mike

----------------
Listening to:
Wölfl Op 28 3 Sonatas for Fortepiano - Laure Colladant - Wölfl Op 28 #3 Sonata in b for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Coopmv]

The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.

How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.

Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.

Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.

Mike

I was speaking from an American perspective and did not speak for any other society.  Why do you think you know more about the American culture than I do?

[knight66]

How would you know it to be so exceptionally different from the other cultures that have adopted and been affected by American mores? How can your comments stop so exactly at the 49th parallel?

Such a down on your fellow countrymen! They fancy a bit of cake, but unless they know how it was baked, you want them to stick to ships'-biscuit.

By the way, congratulations, you were jolly quick about that four year art history course. Do give us the low down on Poussin. Perhaps you can explain to us how his art influenced art subsequent to the French Revolution.


Mike

[Coopmv]

How would you know it to be so exceptionally different from the other cultures that have adopted and been affected by American mores? How can your comments stop so exactly at the 49th parallel?

Such a down on your fellow countrymen! They fancy a bit of cake, but unless they know how it was baked, you want them to stick to ships'-biscuit.

By the way, congratulations, you were jolly quick about that four year art history course. Do give us the low down on Poussin. Perhaps you can explain to us how his art influenced art subsequent to the French Revolution.


Mike

I do not pretend to intimately understand the English culture.  Please do not pretend you understand the American society more than you do.  After all, I live it and you do not.  End of the story.

Would you be more interested to hear about how a diffusion equation handles transonic flow?

[knight66]

Irrespective of where you live, you made an absurd sweeping statement. Also, you have not the least clue what my level of knowledge is of US society.

If you want to play that game of having to live there to have any valid opinions and disqualifying any that come from 'elsewhere', then you provide a hostage to fortune each and every time you speak about anywhere other than the specific area of the society you live in.

Additionally, if you see US society as one homogeneous mass, you simply highlight how clueless you are. There is plenty of research from the US to show how tribal it remains and that what happens in one town can contrast markedly with attitudes in the town 20 miles away.

Your comments were elitist hogwash in any societal context.....As Jim Royale would say, 'End of story? My arse!'

Mike

[ChamberNut]

Mike, you have a very nasty bee in your bonnet today. 

I really don't understand why you are so bent out of shape over Stuart's (Coopmv) comment?

[knight66]

Really? I thought I had been quite clear. I don't like the kind of sweeping elitist attitudes conveyed and I think the attempt to exclude me from commenting, because I don't live next door to Stuart, is fallacious.

We are talking human nature at least as much as about a specific society and I believe he painted himself into a corner; which is where I am now going to leave him, since it seems my comments are more robust you can bear.

Mike

[ChamberNut]

I really don't see how Stuart's comments were elitist, at all.  I think his comments pretty much hit the nail squarely too.  Although it was a generalization, I think it is a good summary of the truth.

[knight66]

Well, I am not going to keep on and on....but what was said was that...

the American society has a chronic attention deficit disorder preventing it from getting into serious music.

Since we have a number of folk for the US as stalwarts of this board, who seem to be part of that society; I don't see how such a sweeping statement can stand examination. But really now, this is my last intervention for now on this topic, I made my points and won't hammer away any further.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I am not going to keep on and on....but what was said was that...

the American society has a chronic attention deficit disorder preventing it from getting into serious music.

Since we have a number of folk for the US as stalwarts of this board, who seem to be part of that society; I don't see how such a sweeping statement can stand examination. But really now, this is my last intervention for now on this topic, I made my points and won't hammer away any further.

Mike

Oh, sorry, couldn't finish that long post... what were you saying there



----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 935 #2 Impromptu in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto

[DavidRoss]

I live in a farm town in Northern California located 10 miles from a university town.  These two towns of about the same size and age are culturally very different from one another--as are LA and San Francisco.  I recall a book (but not the title nor authors) by two sociologists published about 20 years ago about the nine different cultures they saw coexisting in California.  As a Westerner, I know very well how little I have in common with my fellow Americans from the urban East and Midwest.  Yet there is at least one thing that Americans in LA and San Francisco, Cleveland, Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, and Boston all have in common: a great love for classical music sufficient to support world class orchestras and music schools.  This may have much to do with why a recent Gramophone poll of international music critics placed 7 American orchestras among the world's top 20, and why applications for admission to study music at universities and conservatories have steadily risen in the US.  

[Frumaster]

This may have much to do with why a recent Gramophone poll of international music critics placed 7 American orchestras among the world's top 20, and why applications for admission to study music at universities and conservatories have steadily risen in the US.  

Do you remember if the AtlantaSO was one of the 7? 

In response to earlier posts, I think we can all recognize that a substantially large portion of Americans are culturally degenerate.  Look at TV programming, Hollywood, the music business, education, the drug epidemic, etc.  This may be a broad statement, but of course there are many exceptions...and I think many members here are indeed exceptions.  Yet I don't think its too brash to recognize that there are cultural factors  working against appreciation of high art. 

[Diletante]

Sure, at the beginning you're not going to know anything about classical...something more aesthetic will attract you to the music.  But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience. 

I agree with you, Frumaster. However, I was not talking about appreciating, I was talking about liking. Even if you think this is a shallow, mindless liking, it's the only way to start. Let's not forget that we're talking about drawing people who know practically nothing about classical into giving it a try.

If a friend of yours tells you they're interested in giving classical music a try, what would you do? Would you make them read dozens of books on music theory, music appreciation and composers' biographies before you let them hear a single classical piece, lest they only 'like' the music in a shallow way?

[Dundonnell]

My wife does the same, no matter what I am playing it's like "Geez, Gurn, who's funeral is THAT for... " 



PS - Needless to say, she isn't a fan, but it isn't because she hasn't heard every great work ever composed...

----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Lieder from Poems by Goethe - Matthias Goerne \ Andreas Haefliger - D 161 Lied for Voice & Piano "An Mignon" ("Über Tal und Fluss getragen")

I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem

I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married

[Gurn Blanston]

I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem

I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married

Oh, I think it is more common than you might imagine. And since I hadn't been more than casually interested in classical music when we courted and wed, I can't exactly hold it against her since it was something I developed independently. On the upside, she doesn't begrudge my interest or try to change where I've gone, so that's far more tolerant than I could hope, yes?