Weird, and sort of sad...

[orbital]

It is very sad, isn't it?  The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization.  The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well.    

Well civilization is not something that stopped around 1900's. It, too, is constantly evolving and I have a very difficult time understanding the resistance to change, particularly in something like music which has always (even in the high-art ages) been a vehicle of entertainment 

Are you really sad that not many western youngsters today are listening to classical music? When have they ever...? 

Rap music was born as a contemporary protest music -the anticulture which has become a culture itself, just like Beatles did in the 60s. It will be replaced by what is surely upcoming.

[Franco]

Some comments in this thread remind me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain, something to the effect, "I am suspicious of attending any event which requires a change of clothes."  I feel that way about any kind of art, not just music - that is, about having "knowledge" in order to appreciate it. 

Having said that, it is true that I have accumulated an abundance of knowledge about music, and art in general, but when I am experiencing music I tend to forget all that stuff and just attempt to "get it" with my senses, and not by thinking about it - at least as it is happening.  Maybe later, I will look at a score of something and try to find some underlying organization which I may have sensed by listening - but really - all that second hand appreciation is not what I consider the real aesthetic experience.

Hearing the music and feeling something - that is what I value, and I think anyone can do this despite not having a music degree, and in many ways, the more knowledge one has, it can serve to hide the music from you behind everything you think you know about it.

[Frumaster]

Well civilization is not something that stopped around 1900's. It, too, is constantly evolving and I have a very difficult time understanding the resistance to change, particularly in something like music which has always (even in the high-art ages) been a vehicle of entertainment 

Because change is not always for the better, wouldn't you agree?  Some amount of change is inevitable, but we can surely resist cultural degeneracy to some degree.  Also, music was much more than mere entertainment in the Baroque period and earlier (sacred music). 

Are you really sad that not many western youngsters today are listening to classical music? When have they ever...? 

Prior to the 20th century.  Most of the great composers began as children too.

Rap music was born as a contemporary protest music -the anticulture which has become a culture itself, just like Beatles did in the 60s. It will be replaced by what is surely upcoming.

Lets hope so, but I don't like the trajectory we're on.

[Gurn Blanston]

There, I have now split off all that Bachian argument to new pastures. Have at it, and let this thread fade away if it will or continue unimpeded.



----------------
Listening to:
Jan Vermeulen - D 537 Sonata in a for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro, ma non troppo

[jhar26]

During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.

I brought along my MP3 player with a little set of plug-in external speakers so I wouldn't have to deal with headphones (which I learned about the difficulties on my last trip). The first couple of days I just set it next to my bed on that little rolling table and played through the entire Beethoven sonata cycle by Badura-Skoda. I had several nurses during that period, and they each and all stopped and listened to the music (seemingly enjoying it).

Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"

And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".

And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". 

This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?

Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes. Not just classical music, but music of any kind. The average person has the radio playing in the background when he/she cleans his/her house, maybe buys two or three cd's a year and may get one as a present on his/her birthday, and he/she may go down to the disco on a Saturday night to jump up and down a bit, but that's basically it. People who really care about music are a minority and classical music fans are a minority within that minority.

[Diletante]

Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes.

Good point. Even before I liked classical, music played a big role in my life. I couldn't (and can't) imagine living without it. I had my favorite bands, you could hear music in my room all day, had music posters on my wall...

On the same note, I always ask anyone I'm getting to know: "What music do you listen to?". (Always with my heart hoping they will say: "classical music".) By far, the most common response I get is: "A bit of everything." That's when I know that music doesn't play a big role on that person's life. A bit of everything? Who listens to a bit of everything? 

[karlhenning]

There, I have now split off all that Bachian argument to new pastures. Have at it, and let this thread fade away if it will or continue unimpeded.

Gurn, you da man!

[Bulldog]

On the same note, I always ask anyone I'm getting to know: "What music do you listen to?". (Always with my heart hoping they will say: "classical music".) By far, the most common response I get is: "A bit of everything." That's when I know that music doesn't play a big role on that person's life. A bit of everything? Who listens to a bit of everything? 

Eclectic listeners.

[ChamberNut]

Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes.

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with you here.  I think music is an important part of many people's lives, even for people who may not realize it.  And regardless of music genre.

Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?

[c#minor]

I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.

To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.

People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better. In no other music scene is it worse than in classical music. I play a lot of American Old-Time music as well and some of it exists but it is not nearly as bad. It is a much more welcoming environment.

Which this seems to be a natural segment into the rap conversation? Pre-commercialized rap is powerful and moving stuff. Listen to it for what it is, yeah there's a lot of "cussing" and talking about things that seem less than easy listening. Well guess what, if you grew up in an environment of violence and practically no hope of getting out i think you would be apt to write pissed off music as well. But now it's commercialized so it talks about bi***es and money. Commercialized music will always be the easy stuff, don't rate an entire genera of music based of the easy stuff. That's like talking down classical based of that "new age" stuff.

I welcome anyone to try criticize what i have just said but in my opinion it's true.

[Jay F]

Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?

Only twice, and relatively recently (last two or three years).

[CRCulver]

Which this seems to be a natural segment into the rap conversation? Pre-commercialized rap is powerful and moving stuff. Listen to it for what it is, yeah there's a lot of "cussing" and talking about things that seem less than easy listening.

Funny, I've heard a lot of indigenous musics from violent parts of the world, and there's never the sort of rage and profanity as in rap. While rap in general may have been created as an authentic expression of certain parts of America, gangsta rape was carefully wrought by marketers to be so offensive.

[orbital]

To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.

People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs

I agree with your first assessment but not the second one. I think that the reason classical music appeals only to a small segment of the population is because gratification is seldom instant in classical music. Even in most jazz where the music is often very complicated, you may start to tap your feet or keep the beat with snaps instantly. So even if you don't get the music, you may still get something out of it right away.

[karlhenning]

I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.

To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.

People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better.

Dave won't.

I mightn't 

[karlhenning]

Funny, I've heard a lot of indigenous musics from violent parts of the world, and there's never the sort of rage and profanity as in rap. While rap in general may have been created as an authentic expression of certain parts of America, gangsta rape was carefully wrought by marketers to be so offensive.

While I think you are on to something with the idea that the market has forces which are absent from 'indigenous music in the wild', I think that your pinning this on marketers alone is strawmannish.  There are patches of the music industry where the artists are marketers, themselves.

[karlhenning]

http://www.youtube.com/v/r9LCwI5iErE

[Dr. Dread]

My boss says he likes 50 songs.

[Sergeant Rock]

My boss says he likes 50 songs.

Not 49, not 51?    Have you ever asked him for the list?

Sarge

[Dr. Dread]

Not 49, not 51?    Have you ever asked him for the list?

Sarge

I should.

[jhar26]

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with you here.  I think music is an important part of many people's lives, even for people who may not realize it.  And regardless of music genre.

Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?

No, but I'm not saying that they necessarily hate music, only that they are indifferent about it.