LvB string quartet Opus 131

[Mandryka]

On my playback equipment, there's  a sense of space around the instruments, which helps bring a feeling of interesting polyphony. Like the air in a soufflé the air between the instruments helps lighten up the music - even though they sometimes play slowly it never sounds weighty. All four instruments have a strong presence.

Their playing is rarely percussive, and the accents are never pounded forcefully. It's well articulated I'd say, not so incisively as to prevent the music from flowing.

They project the tones quietly, in a dignified and poised way. The use vibrato pretty well throughout and it makes for a sense of vulnerability and humanity.

I never feel as though they're being carried away, what is expressed is abstract, eternal, not the temporary passion of this or that person. They have abandoned themselves. This intellectual rather than emotional approach brings a special sort of other worldliness to the music, a platonic other worldliness. They never fall into the trap of kitsch. 

[Mandryka]

The opposite of the ABQ - emotional, badly recorded, forceful.

[Mandryka]

There's a lot to be said which might mitigate against this one: it's not so well recorded, the tempos are a bit slower than you'd expect, the first violin sounds like a dentist's drill some of the time. Some critics complained about intonation and ensemble, I expect they're right though I'm not able to spot the problems myself (deaf.) Having said that, it is one of those occasions where "force of nature" is totally spot on for the quality of the music making. They are clearly totally passionate about this music, inhabited by it. The interpretation has a rough hewn, tough ruggedness which is quite unexpected.

They re-recorded it here



That later one is sounds better in hifi terms , tempos are quicker so more conventional,  it's more polished and fluid I think, it's rather nice. I don't know it as well in fact, it comes across as just yet another perfectly excellent op 131 to me, while the first for all its very clear and manifold imperfections, is in the "special" category.

[Mandryka]

very straightforward and rather "unromantic".

In the booklet to the Columbia 1940s studio recordings (which arrived yesterday) Harris Goldsmith uses the word "objective" He also, in the context of op 135 admittedly, says that the quartet were interested in what Toscanini was getting up to, which sounds very plausible to me.

[Jo498]

I have also read that they were often compared to Toscanini. I think they tend to be "cooler" than him although they might share several features.
Toscanini played the two middle movements of op.135 (swapped in order) in concert with string orchestra.
I might have this on disc but AFAIR the sound quality is fairly bad. And I am not the biggest fan of orchestral versions of string quartet (even if they are unique and fascinating like Bernstein's op.131 from Vienna).

[PerfectWagnerite]

This is one of LvB's works that truly eludes me. I am just not sure if I am missing a joke or something. The theme of the Andante ma non troppo e molto cantabile is surely mocking someone or something and is just plain irritating.

[Jo498]

I think it is a fairly plain lyrical theme, certainly not mocking. Maybe chosen as rather simply with respect to variations already. I love that movement, although I would not really want to pick a favorite among the three greatest variation movements for string quartet in musical history contained in opp.127,131 and 132 (although the last one does not appear such a typical variation movement it also is one).

Edit: All these variations contain some lighter, serenade-style or even scherzando sections. The difference in op.131 is that this is the only one that starts in a lighter vein and gets "deeper" as it progresses, although the ecstatic coda with trills and stuff is the most serenade-like section of the mvmt. This is a fascinating mixing of aspects and transformation of ornament into a sublime music.
In op.127 the more flowing or scherzando sections are episodic, in op.132 they are the two "Feeling new strength" sections and in op.130 Beethoven basically split those aspects and put all the serenade-like stuff in the 3rd mvmt. and the cantabile stuff in the Cavatina.

[The new erato]

On my playback equipment, there's  a sense of space around the instruments, which helps bring a feeling of interesting polyphony. Like the air in a soufflé the air between the instruments helps lighten up the music - even though they sometimes play slowly it never sounds weighty. All four instruments have a strong presence.

Their playing is rarely percussive, and the accents are never pounded forcefully. It's well articulated I'd say, not so incisively as to prevent the music from flowing.

They project the tones quietly, in a dignified and poised way. The use vibrato pretty well throughout and it makes for a sense of vulnerability and humanity.

I never feel as though they're being carried away, what is expressed is abstract, eternal, not the temporary passion of this or that person. They have abandoned themselves. This intellectual rather than emotional approach brings a special sort of other worldliness to the music, a platonic other worldliness. They never fall into the trap of kitsch.

The complete cycle is just arlund the corner in a very cheap Warner box.

[amw]

The opposite of the ABQ - emotional, badly recorded, forceful.

The Testament issue sounds much better, assuming this is the 1960 recording anyway. I have no idea what Sony was doing (if anything) when they "remastered" these recordings.

[Mandryka]

The Testament issue sounds much better,

Yes

assuming this is the 1960 recording anyway.

I'm pretty sure it is

I have no idea what Sony was doing (if anything) when they "remastered" these recordings.

I suspect no-one cared enough to do a proper job.

[Mandryka]

The complete cycle is just arlund the corner in a very cheap Warner box.

It's been a great pleasure to go back to ABQ, in Beethoven and Mozart and Bartok. One thing I was pleased to come across this week is the transfers which came out  years ago of their Teldec recordings, the ones with Hatto Beyerle, they're better than the old CDs I had. And like almost everyone else, I prefer their first Mozart recordings for the interpretation.

But the biggest discovery was the Bartok, which I'd always just ignored with the prejudice that they weren't the right sort of ensemble, not enough rooted in Hugarian folk music. But that turned out to be a bad way of thinking, because like Juilliard, they are very rooted in C20 modernism, and that's a very valid way of approaching the quartets - maybe the best way.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

It's been a great pleasure to go back to ABQ, in Beethoven and Mozart and Bartok. One thing I was pleased to come across this week is the transfers which came out  years ago of their Teldec recordings, the ones with Hatto Beyerle, they're better than the old CDs I had. And like almost everyone else, I prefer their first Mozart recordings for the interpretation.

Which release are you talking about?

Are you saying

[asin]B0019DM7Y4[/asin]

is a more recent transfer than

[asin] B000024MCP[/asin]

?

This one contains newer EMI recordings, rather than the old Telefunken/Teldec recordings, I believe.

[asin]B0743JLS7X[/asin]

[Mandryka]

No. The one I used to have is this one



I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec performances, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.

(I bet someone will tell me that the top one hasn't got any remastering!  That would be typical of me.)

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

The one I used to have is the middle one. I now have the top one, which sounded better to me (I'm sure someone's going to post to say they're the same, that would be typical of me  ) I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec recordings, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.

Thanks! I have the middle one. I've loved the Teldec recordings since I had them on vinyl, and am interested in the best possible transfer. I wish Warner would actually make this information available.

Prestoclassics sells the newer set as a lossless download, so if I want I can download one track and compare to see if it seems identical or not. But here's one clue. The track timings of the new and old sets match exactly, to the second. Usually if they remaster the timings change a little bit, just because they decide to include a second more silence at the end, of a movement, a different gap between movements, etc. Makes me suspect they are the same. 

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

No. The one I used to have is this one



I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec performances, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.

(I bet someone will tell me that the top one hasn't got any remastering!  That would be typical of me.)

Anyway, now you've got me intrigued about the ABQ Bartok.
I'm quite sure that one is effectively the same as my brown cover one. They both have the Teldec logo and would have been released around the same time, before they Warner umbrella descended on them.

[Jo498]

Yes, I have the older brown cover issue. The red one seems merely a more recent issue of the same (1970s) recordings. I am not sure they even did a new remastering (or does the cover claim so?) The black Teldec box contains again the same recordings. As you can see they did not record that much for Teldec (I have all of them separately, except for the Schubert disc).

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I did see a claim in an amazon review that the black box has been remastered and improved compared to earlier release. The question, what earlier release? I also had at least one CD that looked like this:



Maybe it was remastered from the earliest release, since the older collection, or maybe it was never remastered at all and it is just his imagination. 

The one I have real affection for is this:



which I had back in the day.

[Jo498]

The brown and red are earlier than black box with all the Teldec. I found the sound always good enough in isolation but I am not very picky about these things. In earlier years I replaced about 3 or 4 somewhat historical (all 50s or early 60s) recordings with more recent masterings: Callas/De Sabata Tosca, Brahms Requiem and Fidelio with Klemperer.
I gave up on comparison remasterings after several frustrating comparison sessions. Once I agreed with an audiophile on a pretty good system (don't remember the details) that the Living Stereo CD issue of the Brahms VC actually sounded inferior to a cheaper RCA disc of the same. And I remember comparing Furtwängler's Haydn #88 in two issues and for my life could not decide which one I preferred. (I heard small differences, but could not decide which one sounded better).
And from the late 60s onwards the differences are for me usually too small to matter, so I stick either with what I have or I decide according to price or coupling, regardless of older or more recent remasterings.

[Mandryka]

I'm sure the black is better than the red! (NB reference to Stendhal in there)

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I'm sure the black is better than the red! (NB reference to Stendhal in there)

Maybe I'll spend a buck or two and download one track lossless from Prestoclassical and see if I notice an improvement.

Usually I find very little difference, except when comparing to a master made in the 1980's (when the converters they were using had limitations). If they're still using the original CD masters (from the individual CD cover I posted) those would be 1980's masters and there could be room for improvement.