Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Todd]

I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.

[Bogey]

I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.

Thank you for that Todd.  Changed my original post to an open invitation to all those that want to field it....no discourtesy intended here and my apologies folks.

As to your post Todd, I find it very reassuring as to your take on the Kempff cycle.  I tend to enjoy my non-orchestral Beethoven on the slow side (guess that is why I enjoy the Vegh SQ's as much as I do).  Maybe that is why I have found my Kempff stereo cycle so enjoyable and was wondering why I just do not line up with many of the other performers I have heard.  I am going to begin to explore the other two that you listed as well, Ikuyo Nakamichi and Anton Kuerti, for I might really enjoy these performances.  Thanks here.

[George]

Folks,
Out of all the cycles, and for that matter, incomplete cycles, what recordings of the sonatas would you say are the most "slow" or methodical, if the later is a better term?  And I am talking the speed where while you are listening you are physically trying to nudge the performer along without success.  Would the Kempff stereo works be one of these?

When I think slow or methodical, Barenboim, Arrau, Gould and Gilels spring to mind. Richter can also fit this description in some works, namely the late ones. At first impression I absolutely wanted to nudge them along without success. Over time, though, I find that when I am in the right mood, these interpretations are a delight to listen to. Late evening is one such time. Things are revealed that are glossed over in the faster interpretations.

No, Kempff is not one of these. I hear his tempos as being fairly middle of the road, at times even faster than the norm, as in some slow movements. His Beethoven is a scaled down Beethoven, with dynamics that probably resemble that of the HIP versions more than any other modern pianist that I can think of. I suspest this is why Que enjoys his LvB. Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.

[Bogey]

Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.

Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.

[George]

Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.

I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2

[Bogey]

I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2

Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.

[George]

Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.

Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.

[Bogey]

Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.

And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

[Bogey]

And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.

[George]

And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas. 

[George]

After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.

Certainly not .

[Bogey]

Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas. 

I call it "range", my friend.

[Gurn Blanston]

I suspect this is why Que enjoys his LvB.

And Gurn. 

Still my favorite on modern instrument...

[uffeviking]

The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 

[Gurn Blanston]

The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 

Uffe,
I am ready to accept that as a concept. But I would really like to know what the word means, precisely. (I'm sure there is no exact translation, but a sense of the difference would be good). Then we can think about what the differences are and how they are illustrated in the music.

[uffeviking]

To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear? 

[Gurn Blanston]

To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear? 

Crystal clear. Danke!

[George]

I call it "range", my friend.

That's precisely my point. If you have range across genres, then I figure that you must have range within each genre. Therefore, no one pianist is going to "be the one for you" leaving room for many types of interpretations. That's why I have well, lets just say "many" different interpretations, for I have range as well. In fact, if I had to choose between my favorite set (A. Fischer) and the rest, I would take the rest because I feel that I don't really see those works clearly without looking at them through a number of pianist's eyes.

[Maciek]

Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))

[BachQ]

Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))

Yes, that DVD looks like a winner! I'd like to learn more about the Diabelli Variations Veränderungen . . . . And about mashed potatoes . . . . .