Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

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(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer's career: consider the mighty variation movements in the Third, Fifth, and Ninth symphonies, the piano sonatas opp. 109 and 111, and the monumental Diabelli set. If you are at all fond of those works, you should listen to the early Beethoven variations, for they really do provide great insights into his evolving language and his way of creating something stupendous out of nothing.

I say "nothing" because one of the insights on offer here is that Beethoven consciously chose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes for his variations.

I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements - and you leave out some of the most striking examples, such as the slow movements of the Kreutzer sonata, the Archduke Trio, and the Quartets opp. 127, 131, and 135. And note that almost always, the Eroica finale and the Diabellis excepted (the latter being a whole world unto itself), these variation sets served as slow movements in larger multi-movement works. For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

And since variation form was predominantly an outlet for lyricism in Beethoven, it stands to reason that it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Scarpia

Quote from: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer's career

I must agree with Sforzando, this is a silly statement, given the central role of Sonata form is so many of Beethoven's works.  This is not to deny that Beethoven had taken "variations" to levels that were beyond what his immediate predecessors did, but I find Beethoven's Sonata form movements typically contain his most characterist utterances.  I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Scarpia on January 17, 2011, 07:01:34 PM
I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.

I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Scarpia

Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.

I guess in English nothing is incorrect, really. 

Brian

Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 05:45:49 PM
I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements .... [but] it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.

Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different, namely
1. that variations are central to the "musical personality" in the sense that they express uniquely Beethovenian ideas in nearly every instance, and in nearly every instance are conceived and structured in a uniquely Beethovenian way. This breaks down into a number of theses: the form was adopted by Beethoven and given its own unique style; its products seem to drive to the core of the composer's spirit; at many of the most crucial moments in his music he turned to t&v to express what he needed to say.

One gets a powerful sense of the purpose and essence of his music when hearing, for example, the sonata-form Symphony 5 movement i, and his "declaration of independence," as it were, the Eroica, features two sonata forms and a variations movement. What I primarily intended to point out in the review was that the uniquely "Beethovenian" treatment of variations which he exhibited throughout his career was in some ways established very early on, so we can hear characteristics of, say, opp 109/111 in the early unpublished sets. In my defense it might be pointed out here that, in his late period, the variations started popping up nearly everywhere: Opp 107 (a minor work), 109, 111, 120, 125 (finale is a hybrid t&v, too), 127, 131, 135. Excluding Op 107, that's seven or eight, depending on how you count, from the 1820s. Which leads to the second point of my thinking...

2. that variations, as a form, are associated with Beethoven more than anyone else (except Bach?). Probably (you'd be a better judge of this point since my Bach knowledge is weak and I freely drop Beethoven from "more than anyone else" to "Top Three/Five!" if necessary) Bach, Mozart, and Haydn turned to t&v more often, and Brahms regularly triumphed in the form, but Beethoven produced a just startling number of absolutely monumental variation movements. Others before him had incorporated t&v into sonatas, quartets, and symphonies, but I'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 05:45:49 PM
For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

I'd argue that blandness is a trait of the themes by other composers which he chose to vary, were I given the chance to edit my essay to take this point into account. The only original theme I cite as being "chosen" for blandness is the Eroica; I certainly would not want to be calling Op 109 or 127 "boring."

As for "vintage," saying "this is vintage Dvorak" or "vintage Beethoven" or "vintage whomever" has become so standard it's no use avoiding it. Consider evidence of the word's pervasiveness on GMG alone.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different. . .

That is a more subtle and credible argument than I had inferred from your original post. Nonetheless, there are a number of points in it that I would question when I get a bit more time this evening.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Scarpia

Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PMI'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

Are you talking about the 5th symphony? 


Brian

#927
Sforzando - an additional thought I had while walking through the British Library today is that - whether rightfully or out of listener's prejudice - I think of sonata form as a sort of "default" for some of the forms Beethoven inherited: ie, you start a symphony/sonata/quartet with a sonata-form movement, it's one of the top options for the andante/adagio, etc. Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, often greater weight for the third or "outro" theme; perhaps someone can tell me if he was first to insert fugue sections?) as he effected huge changes to the theme and variations form (hence why I call it, somewhat slickly but I think rightly, "theme and transformations") - as well as to how t&v was used, to form the emotional heart of works rather than a diverting demonstration of wit. His predecessors in that vein are Bach, Haydn's keyboard F minor variations, and... I don't know of much of a crowd there.   :-\

I guess the way that this explains my above posts is, I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc. So it seemed to me that saying sonata form was central would be like saying political freedom is central is to Great Britain - true, of course, but saying more about the well-known efficacy of political freedom than about British taste.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 07:58:16 AM
Are you talking about the 5th symphony?

Yes, sir.

Quote from: mn dave on January 19, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
di-di-di-DAAAH!  ;D

Yes, sir! (I'm being creepy by quoting a post after mine.)

The Diner


Scarpia

#929
Quote from: Brian on January 19, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
Yes, sir.

You are stretching it a bit to go from the appearance of a rhythmic motif in the four movements of the symphony to say that the symphony is organized on variations on that motif.   It has an essential role in the first movement, since it is the basis of the principal theme of the movement.  The other four movements have their own themes, in which the rhythmic motif is woven to give a sense of unity.  To characterize the symphony as "variations" on that motif is dramatically overstating things, in my opinion.

On the other hand, in Brahms 3 the I-III-VIII figure that opens the first movement really does pervade the entire work, and your claim about Beethoven's fifth might really describe that piece, IMO.

In my view (which is quite a conventional view, I have to admit) the essence of Beethoven is the way he takes the small motifs from which his themes are built and transforms and collides and juxtaposes them.   I would say the most brilliant thing that happens in Beethoven's fifth is the way the gentle second subject of the first movement takes on the urgency of the first theme in the blazing coda to that movement (ba-ba-ba-baaa's in the accompanying voices not withstanding).  That is the epitome of sonata form development, not theme and variations.  That fact that you can wake up from a nap at any point in Beethoven's fifth and manage to find a ba-ba-ba-baaa somewhere in the orchestral texture is not the most essential thing, IMO.



Cato

One of my Seventh Graders informed me today that his science-fair project involved measuring blood pressure as a response to different types of music.

30 people were tested.

The opening two minutes of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony raised more people's blood pressure than anything else.   :o

Two minutes of some rock song (I had never heard of it) came in second, followed by two minutes of a country song by Dire Straits.   0:)

Showing little influence on blood pressure was some sort of "cool jazz."   8)

So why did Beethoven's work do this to people?

To be sure: it is a stressful work!

Perhaps they thought they would have to listen to the entire work!   :o
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mensch on January 19, 2011, 11:08:28 AM
Perhaps they were stressed in anticipation of hearing Olbermann next.

Olbermann's Sixth is terrifying.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

(poco) Sforzando

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different,

Just a few observations about Brian's posts:

The Eroica is in four movements – sonata form, funeral march with trio, scherzo with trio, and variations. Each of these movements, the scherzo perhaps excepted, does something to expand and challenge any received ideas about how these kinds of form could be treated.

I would be interested in how you hear characteristics of 109/111 in the early works.

The slow movement of 132 has to be included in the late variation sets too. It is an ABABA + coda format, where each repetition of the A section is a strict variation in faster note values.

The finale of 125 has some variation sections, primarily the instrumental treatment of the Big Tune before the bass comes in, but I prefer to call it a cantata and leave it at that.

Bach wrote some amazing variations, and besides the Goldbergs there are the organ passacaglia in C minor and the solo violin chaconne in D minor. But although the idea of an extended variation movement did not originate with Bach (there are precedents, for example, in the English 16th-century virginalists like Bull, Byrd, and Farnaby), the Goldberg set was unique in Bach's output.

I agree with Scarps on the Fifth Symphony. I think the relevance of that opening motif to the rest of the symphony has been considerably overstated, and it's not correct to say the symphony is a set of four variation movements. (Broadly speaking, they are: sonata form, variations, scherzo with trio, and sonata form.) Besides, when Beethoven writes a set of variations, they generally follow fairly strictly the phrase structure of the theme, though there may be freely structured episodes.

I don't know what later variation work you're alluding to. Schubert in the Wanderer Fantasy attempted to base all the movements very loosely on the opening theme of the first movement; Saint-Saens did something similar in his Third Symphony.

The first to insert fugue sections in sonata form? By no means. Think of Mozart's Jupiter for just the most obvious example.

As for blandness, that depends. Two of the sets of variations for cello/piano are based on themes from Mozart's Magic Flute. The uniqueness of the Diabelli set is that Beethoven went farther than ever before to develop the motivic potential in the silly and apparently unpromising theme. Individual variations exploit the opening grace note motif, or the repeated chords, or the drop of a perfect fourth. A later variation set like Britten's Purcell Variations, aka the Young Person's Guide, develops the motivic qualities of the theme while leaving behind completely the classical insistence on maintaining the phrase structure.

On the whole, though, I think this is a more convincing way of approaching the topic than I had gotten from your first comment. And I agree entirely that "Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, etc." That's an excellent and relevant comment. But that being the case, you let me down badly when you write, "I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc." I would instead argue that Beethoven made sonata form as much his own as he did variations.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Brian

Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(

mc ukrneal

Be kind to your fellow posters!!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Brian on February 08, 2011, 04:13:24 AM
Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(

Quite all right, Brian.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Brian

#937
I've recently unearthed, at the British Library, a trove of concert programs kept by the English conductor Sir George Smart, active in the 1810s-30s, who was a major Beethoven advocate, leading the English premiere of Beethoven's Ninth and at one point traveling to Vienna to ask the composer about the proper tempos for all the symphonies. Beethoven composed a short unpublished canon in his presence (16th September 1825). For concerts he conducted, Smart not only kept the programs, but made little notations of some of the timings of the works which most interested him, as well as how long the interval was and when everybody got to go home.

These two struck me as interesting:

5th of May, 1823. Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "32 M. No repeats."
March 23, 1829: Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "All through but no repeats 32 ½ minutes."

Karajan '62 (no repeats) is 36 minutes. Norrington LCP (w/ repeats) is 40, Bruggen (also with repeats) 42, and the ultimate romantic, Barenboim, takes 45.

On March 1, 1830, the Sinfonia in C minor was 26 minutes, though in 1827 it had been 31 (no mention of repeats). In March 1833, "Sinfonia No. VII." was "40 m." including "Slow movement Enc'd:" and a marginal note informs us that the encore was partly because the symphony was to be followed by an aria from Cosi, but the soprano arrived very late indeed, "just after we began the Encore of the...Beethoven" . Apparently the reason for her delay was that she was also performing in another concert at another theatre that night!

It's very interesting seeing how programs were constructed. One night in 1825 began with Beethoven's 4th ("in Bb 31 minutes"), which was immediately followed by "La ci darem"! And here's the second half of the March 7, 1825 Philharmonic Society concert:

Sinfonia in C minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beethoven
Aria, "Il mio tesoro," (Il Don Giovanni) - - - - - - - Mozart
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke
Scena, "Softly sighs" (Der Freischutz*) - - - - - - Weber
Overture, Preciosa - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Weber
[*sung in English. All German arias were translated; there are numerous arias sung from a Mozart work called "Il Flauto Magico" ;D , and also see below]

Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

Oddly, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says "Smart conducted the first English performance of Beethoven's ninth symphony at the Philharmonic Society in 1826," an error, as it was actually in March 21, 1825. Smart's handwritten note says, "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven. Composed expressly for this Society _ (Italian Words [!]) Formed 2d Act of the Concert." The performance "Began 22m past 10" and the concert "over 26m past 11" - Smart's note says "1 H 04 M." In my view, this puts the "Beethoven's Ninth is supposed to only be 45 minutes long" theory to bed, for although it is true that Smart only met Beethoven to consult on tempos later that year, I'm not sure you can get down to 45 minutes by faster speeds alone, especially given that Smart himself was quite a snappy conductor, by the looks of it.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Fascinating bit of research; thanks for sharing. Re this:

Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

I've heard that it used to be normal to put the "heavy" work at the beginning of a concert. This was common until some time in the mid-20th c., at which point the reverse order began to predominate. Why this change occurred, I don't know. Anyone?

Quote"New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven.

Another puzzlement. Did composers not give numbers to their symphonies in LvB's time? All I see here are key designations and nicknames. The latter make sense as shorthand, but if I see "symphony by Herr Haydn in C major," how am I supposed to know which of the many works fitting that description is meant? In any case, I'm glad that LvB 9 is no longer marketed as "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia."
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke

Couldn't resist looking this guy up. Apparently a friend of Schumann's, who died at the age of 23. Ah, the promise snuffed out... :'(
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach