Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Brahmsian]

To begin with, the price is good even for middling performances of the epic amount of content in it.

More so, I recall someone having waxed lyrical about Ms. Biret here in the past. However, I am hugely suspicious over lesser-known pianists who are alleged to 'magically' manifest talent and experience beyond more established artists. The question therefore is, can anyone sell me (and anyone else interested) Idil Biret, as a Beethoven pianist?

I want to like the idea of this set enough to buy it, at £53; but not if it's anything other than exceptional.


Edit: Just to clarify, I'm asking if anyone can cite any recorded examples of her being a great pianist.

I'm not an expert, but I honestly had no idea Idil Biret was considered a 2nd rate pianist?   The only recording I do have of hers (and really love by the way) is her Chopin Sonatas recording on Naxos.  It won the Grand Prix du Disque Chopin in 1995 (just not sure if that means anything or not?)

[Mn Dave]

To answer my own question, with apologies for the double post, she seems to have been Wilhelm Kempff's pupil.

That's significant!

Edit: And Cortot?

I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.

[Brian]

I haven't heard any of her Beethoven, but it has gotten tepid reviews here in the USA. Her playing seemed to draw its highest international acclaim in the 1970s and early 1980s, when she also made some of her best recordings, so check the dates on the sonatas (the concertos are new).

Her Brahms Concerto One is good enough, and the Rachmaninov concerto set (also with Wit) is quite good indeed, but I wasn't thrilled by the Chopin I heard (preludes, concertos, pretty good etudes, and a couple mazurkas only).

[Brahmsian]

I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.

[Renfield]

Sounds like a case of gifted pianist, great background, hit-and-miss results.

Hm. Thanks for the feedback, folks!


(And I don't think I'd call anyone with her resume second-rate. But there is a difference between an A- and an A+, in my book, and one of the main criteria I'd use to discriminate between them is consistency. Another is reputation*. )


*By which I mean she's no Brendel in fame, for example. And I ask myself 'why?'

[Brahmsian]

Plus, she was (is) a Naxos artist, so by that definition - it is automatic 2nd rate assumption!!

*chortle*

[Brahmsian]

Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   

[Opus106]

I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

But there is a difference between an A- and an A+, in my book, and one of the main criteria I'd use to discriminate between them is consistency. Another is reputation*. )

*By which I mean she's no Brendel in fame, for example. And I ask myself 'why?'

There are sound reasons for not following a high-profile music career, a la Brendel, mostly pertaining to a musician's temperament. Living up to expectations can be a beastly thing, just ask Argerich or Van Cliburn, both of whom left the solo concert circuit due to the enormous pressure that followed them wherever they went. Sviatoslav Richter too preferred intimate venues to play in unburdened by high profile scrutiny. All these artists of course are notable for their associated fame but in the end they were simply human and their frailty won out over the jet-set lifestyle. Intimacy then became the name of the game for them.

This poses problems for any artist looking to make a living performing music (and not just classical). Overcoming nerves can be a no-win situation for many which means those so predetermined might not have any choice but to seek out a musical career which caters to a 'slow lane' type of lifestyle. For many this means hanging out on the fringes of the recording/concert circuit with little chance of making worldwide headlines.

The GOOD news is - for performer X and for us as well - worldwide headlines isn't an indication of a performers' worth, as we all surely know, even though life in the slow lane will always be a reality for them. Fortunately there's an outlet for such musicians which can still meet their artistic - and temperamental - needs while at the same time providing the listening public with a generous sampling of their capabilities: the independent labels.

To me there's no greater resource than the independents for outstanding talent. The only thing lacking is the high profile marketing that the "majors" can provide. But many talented musicians thrive in such a low profile setting and it's to our benefit that they have the opportunity to strut their stuff unencumbered by high pressure PR. IOW, we get some great music to listen to!

They may be lesser known amongst the public but their talent wins out all the same.

[Renfield]

Granted, (relative) obscurity can be a lifestyle choice.

However, there were extremely 'frail' famous soloists, who nonetheless performed (Horowitz), or were recalled after they stopped performing (Gould), achieving recognition among the (classical, not 'Vanessa Mae') music-loving public.

My point is, widespread artistic recognition can be a strong predictor for genuine excellence. Same with composers. Indeed, this is the Beethoven thread: Beethoven, who was by all accounts a curmudgeon, a man with flaws, like you say, and all the rest of it. But through his talent and expertise, Beethoven earned himself the recognition we now give him. Conversely, there seems to me to be a fundamental flaw in the kind of thinking that leads people (not saying you) to completely remove recognition from the equation, just because there exist individuals who are genuinely good and not recognised. That's fallacious, albeit in a way that human thinking regularly is (known as 'affirming the consequent').


I haven't claimed anyone said this here, of course. I'm just making a point of asking about a pianist I don't know, who also isn't 'known' in the social sense, a household name, because obscurity is justified more often than not.

Here, maybe it's not. Either way, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[Lisztianwagner]

Beethoven is certainly one of the greatest composers ever existed; his music is extremely beautiful, passionate and powerful, especially that one of his late period, it shows a great intellectual depth, a highly expressive and intense personality and finest innovations in formal, structural and harmonical terms (source-motives, chorus in a symphony etc.).
Some of my favourite Beethoven's pieces:

Symphonies No. 3/5/6/7/9
Choral Fantasy
Piano Sonatas, expecially No.8 Pathetique and No. 21 Waldstein
Piano Concertos No.4/5
Cello Sonatas
Violin Sonatas
String Quartets
Triple Concerto op.56
Diabelli Variations

Herbert von Karajan recorded the most beautiful version of Beethoven Symphonies I've ever listened to; the same is true of Vladimir Ashkenazy in both the Piano and Violin/Piano Sonatas (with Perlman).
Instead I think the best version of Triple Concerto is the Richter/Rostopovich/Oistrakh/Karajan.

Ilaria

[Gurn Blanston]

Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   

My favorite, Ray;



As with so many other things, Mackerras, at the time of his death, was the best Beethoven MI interpreter. He wrings the most out of this one.

[Brahmsian]

My favorite, Ray;



As with so many other things, Mackerras, at the time of his death, was the best Beethoven MI interpreter. He wrings the most out of this one.

Alright, thanks Gurn! 

[madaboutmahler]

Beethoven is certainly one of the greatest composers ever existed; his music is extremely beautiful, passionate and involving, especially that one of his late period, it shows a great intellectual depth, a highly expressive and intense personality and finest innovations in formal, structural and harmonical terms (source-motives, chorus in a symphony etc.).
Some of my favourite Beethoven's pieces:

Symphonies No. 3/5/6/7/9
Choral Fantasy
Piano Sonatas, expecially No.8 Pathetique and No. 21 Waldstein
Piano Concertos No.4/5
Cello Sonatas
Violin Sonatas
String Quartets
Triple Concerto op.56
Diabelli Variations

Herbert von Karajan recorded the most beautiful version of Beethoven Symphonies I've ever listened to; the same is true of Vladimir Ashkenazy in both the Piano and Violin/Piano Sonatas (with Perlman).
Instead I think the best version of Triple Concerto is the Richter/Rostopovich/Oistrakh/Karajan.

Ilaria

I can completely agree with you Ilaria! Certainly one of the greatest composers ever, and of course one of the most influential. Without Beethoven, it's likely Brahms/Wagner wouldn't have been so great, which would have meant that Strauss/Mahler wouldn't have been so great, which then means Schoenberg (etc) would not have been so great!
Your favourite works of Beethoven are pretty much the same as mine, although I would add the piano sonatas 14, 17, appassionata and 32.

Daniel

[Lisztianwagner]

Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   

Apart from Mackerras & Scottish Chamber Orchestra, you might also try Harnoncourt's version with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe.

Ilaria

[Lisztianwagner]

I can completely agree with you Ilaria! Certainly one of the greatest composers ever, and of course one of the most influential. Without Beethoven, it's likely Brahms/Wagner wouldn't have been so great, which would have meant that Strauss/Mahler wouldn't have been so great, which then means Schoenberg (etc) would not have been so great!
Your favourite works of Beethoven are pretty much the same as mine, although I would add the piano sonatas 14, 17, appassionata and 32.

Daniel

Definitely agree; what would have Romantic era's musical language and thinking been if Beethoven had never existed?

Well, I love all the piano sonatas; I would have written No.14 Moonlight, 17 The Tempest, 23 appassionata and 32 just after those ones I mentioned, but the list would have been a bit too long.......

Ilaria

[prémont]

I want to like the idea of this set enough to buy it, at £53; but not if it's anything other than exceptional.

I own all the contents of this box except the Emperor concerto (and the Choral fantasy). It is a mixed bag and certainly not exceptional.

The Beethoven / Liszt symphonies are deliberate, - played with a kind (of) affection which appeals to me.

The concertos receive unsensational middle of the road performances (conductor Wit is a fine Beethovenian BTW).

The weakest part of the set is the sonatas. I have not heard but about half of the sonatas, but I often get the impression that Biret has got problems with the great lines of the music and with maintenance of the continuity. Whether this is a result of editing or too much spontaneity on the part of Biret, I can not tell,  but she does not really convince me.

[madaboutmahler]

Definitely agree; what would have Romantic era's musical language and thinking been if Beethoven had never existed?

Well, I love all the piano sonatas; I would have written No.14 Moonlight, 17 The Tempest, 23 appassionata and 32 just after those ones I mentioned, but the list would have been a bit too long.......

Ilaria

Certainly. I am sure we could have both gone on for a long time writing various other pieces of Beethoven we love!

Daniel

[Lisztianwagner]

Certainly. I am sure we could have both gone on for a long time writing various other pieces of Beethoven we love!

Daniel

Hahaha, yes, nice idea I'm sure if we had tried to do this, we would still have been here adding pieces on our lists, Beethoven wrote a pile of compositions as high as the ceiling 

Ilaria

[Renfield]

I own all the contents of this box except the Emperor concerto (and the Choral fantasy). It is a mixed bag and certainly not exceptional.

The Beethoven / Liszt symphonies are deliberate, - played with a kind (of) affection which appeals to me.

The concertos receive unsensational middle of the road performances (conductor Wit is a fine Beethovenian BTW).

The weakest part of the set is the sonatas. I have not heard but about half of the sonatas, but I often get the impression that Biret has got problems with the great lines of the music and with maintenance of the continuity. Whether this is a result of editing or too much spontaneity on the part of Biret, I can not tell,  but she does not really convince me.

Many thanks, Premont.