Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Mandryka]

I asked about Beethoven's library because I want to know what music by CPE Bach he knew. We know from his letters that he was interested in CPEB, liked what he had heard.

[Jo498]

I am not sure if I am speculating or recollecting half-remembered stuff I read some time ago, but Beethoven probably encountered CPE Bach's music for Clavier already as a kid in Bonn via his teacher Neefe. So he could have known quite a bit of it without having it in his library 30+ years later in Vienna.

[aquablob]

I am not sure if I am speculating or recollecting half-remembered stuff I read some time ago, but Beethoven probably encountered CPE Bach's music for Clavier already as a kid in Bonn via his teacher Neefe. So he could have known quite a bit of it without having it in his library 30+ years later in Vienna.

Yes, and see also:

• http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=&template=dokseite_digitales_archiv_en&_dokid=ha:wm57&_seite=1 (Morgengesang am Schöpfungstage, manuscript once owned by Brahms)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=hfFT5p8_qKwC&pg=PA142 (Litanies, W. 204)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=7e0sAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA160 (W. 49/4/II and 49/5/II)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=phEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388 (Die Israeliten in der Wüste)

(h/t Warren Kirkendale)

[Mandryka]

Yes, and see also:

• http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=&template=dokseite_digitales_archiv_en&_dokid=ha:wm57&_seite=1 (Morgengesang am Schöpfungstage, manuscript once owned by Brahms)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=hfFT5p8_qKwC&pg=PA142 (Litanies, W. 204)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=7e0sAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA160 (W. 49/4/II and 49/5/II)
• https://books.google.com/books?id=phEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388 (Die Israeliten in der Wüste)

(h/t Warren Kirkendale)

Someone told me that Beethoven wrote to CPEB's publisher in 1809 requesting scores, apparenty he said   "Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers."

That made me wonder if he was aware of the Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas, or whether he only knew of the more conventional stuff. I guess he may have known about music in empfinsamer style from Haydn - from the C minor sonata Hob 16/20. Or indeed from Mozart's K540.

[Madiel]

I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations for recordings of two slightly obscure corners of Beethoven's repertoire.

The first is "string quintets that aren't op.29".  I'm most interested in the op.4 quintet, but not averse to the op.104 arrangement or the op.136 fugue either.  Heck, I'm not that averse to something that includes op.29, even though I've already got a couple of recordings, because it's one of Beethoven's very best works and I can't believe more people aren't in love with it.

The second is the works for piano duet, especially the Sonata op.6 and the Marches op.45 (there are a couple of sets of variations as well EDIT: Oh, and a piano version of the Grosse Fugue!). Recordings seem to be pretty uncommon.

[Jo498]

I only have the Brillant Classics twofer with a Zurich group doing all the String quintets. It seemed serviceable enough but as I do not remember a lot about the Arrangements and shorter works, I cannot be more specific. There are very few recordings of these "secondary quintets" (maybe the Endellion Q have them in their quartets recording because this one has also some fragmentary quartets).

(I do not think I have heard the 4-hand pieces)

[EigenUser]

Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th. I love the Missa Solemnis (favorite), the 5th, 7th, Egmont, and Lenore No. 3 (though I've only heard the latter a few times). I heard a few of the late piano sonatas a couple of months ago (including the Hammerklavier) and really liked them.

[Madiel]

Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th. I love the Missa Solemnis (favorite), the 5th, 7th, Egmont, and Lenore No. 3 (though I've only heard the latter a few times). I heard a few of the late piano sonatas a couple of months ago (including the Hammerklavier) and really liked them.

Feel free to derail. Beethoven is in my top 3 composers (I know, because GMG asked me in a poll and I had to think about it). It really doesn't matter whether you are talking early, middle or late works, the music is excellent and the feeling of those different phases of his career is so different.

This is precisely why I'm burrowing down into corners like op.4 and op.6.  Those are in fact the only 2 out of the first 31 opuses (pretty much the bit before the numbering becomes screwy, on account of Beethoven's growing fame and early works getting published to satisfy the demands of publishers) that I don't have a recording of.

[Linus]

I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th.

Seriously though, that's pretty cool, in a weird sort of way.

[Linus]

BTW, what's the best Beethoven biography?

I've read Beethoven: The Universal Composer by Edmund Morris, and although it wasn't bad, I remember it as having too much a focus on Beethoven's economics than on the music and on his thoughts on art and life in general. Quite a "materialistic" approach for lack of a better term.

[Madiel]

I like Barry Cooper's book. For me it has just the right balance of talking about the music while putting it in a bit of context. There's a dash of musical analysis as well without getting excessively technical.

EDIT: Plus when I emailed him a question, he answered almost right away. 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

"The revenues from the liquor excise [tax] have suffered a loss in the death of Beethoven." - Archduke Maximilian about death of Beethoven's father.

[Linus]

I like Barry Cooper's book. For me it has just the right balance of talking about the music while putting it in a bit of context. There's a dash of musical analysis as well without getting excessively technical.

EDIT: Plus when I emailed him a question, he answered almost right away. 

Thanks for the tip!

I'm curious: what was the question (and answer)? 0:)

[Madiel]

I'm curious: what was the question (and answer)? 0:)

It was to do with how 'An die Hoffnung' managed to be op.32 when it wasn't written until a couple of years after the works around it. The answer was that some things got stuffed into gaps in the opus numbering when the list was "cleaned up" some years later.

It's odd how Beethoven's numbers make perfect chronological sense in parts, and then - when there's a period where older stuff is being published because he has works in progress and nothing finished - the numbers are no help whatsoever.

[Jo498]

Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th.

So why don't you just listen to the piece? What's keeping you away? And do not forget the 3rd! And the 4th piano concerto, and...

[Jo498]

BTW, what's the best Beethoven biography?

I have not yet read the recent one by a Dutch author (Caeyers) but Lewis Lockwood's from about 10-12 years ago or so is very readable and has a nice balance between "life" and "works".

[mszczuj]

The second is the works for piano duet, especially the Sonata op.6 and the Marches op.45 (there are a couple of sets of variations as well EDIT: Oh, and a piano version of the Grosse Fugue!). Recordings seem to be pretty uncommon.

First recommendation is of course for period instrument:

[asin]B004KDO2WA[/asin]

But I grew up with Demus Shetler Grosse Fuge which is available (with all other 4 hand music) in this box now:

[asin]B000001GZ9[/asin]

[Pat B]

I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations for recordings of two slightly obscure corners of Beethoven's repertoire.

The first is "string quintets that aren't op.29".  I'm most interested in the op.4 quintet, but not averse to the op.104 arrangement or the op.136 fugue either.  Heck, I'm not that averse to something that includes op.29, even though I've already got a couple of recordings, because it's one of Beethoven's very best works and I can't believe more people aren't in love with it.

I have the Archibudelli recording which is of an anonymous arrangement ("possibly by Beethoven or Ries") of the Kreutzer Sonata. I don't know if that fits the bill of what you're looking for. It's a pretty good arrangement, and I am a fan of Archibudelli's playing in almost everything.

Oh, and the Endellion Quartet cycle includes some of these, but I'm not such a fan of that set. But I should probably give their Quintets another spin.

[Jo498]

Yes, that Kreutzer arrangement is a strange beast. Unfortunately there is no op.29 by Archibudelli, I think. Except for the Zurich group on Brilliant I have 3 recordings of op.29 all of which I like quite well: Budapest Q. from the 1940s, Hausmusik and the Kuijken family ensemble.

[Madiel]

First recommendation is of course for period instrument:

Yes, because why have a perfectly tuned piano when you can have one that always sounds perilously close to honky-tonk...

I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

EDIT: There are rare exceptions where it's tolerable, but I don't think it's going to work for me in 4-hand music.