Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[North Star]

a perfectly tuned piano

A what?  0:)

[Madiel]

*ignores North Star on purpose*

Funnily enough, I found this recording more tolerable, period piano wise

[asin]B008N66L2Y[/asin]

It still feels though, like their gimmick - of playing everything twice, once on modern piano, once on period piano - is basically a ploy to make everybody part with more money.

[Pat B]

It still feels though, like their gimmick - of playing everything twice, once on modern piano, once on period piano - is basically a ploy to make everybody part with more money.

I've never heard (or heard of) that Hamann set, but I have heard a couple of period+modern recordings, and not been very impressed by them -- "gimmick" is the right word. And I like the fortepiano much better than you do.

[Mandryka]

Yes, because why have a perfectly tuned piano when you can have one that always sounds perilously close to honky-tonk...

I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

EDIT: There are rare exceptions where it's tolerable, but I don't think it's going to work for me in 4-hand music.

I liked the piano on that recording, which to me sounds almost like woodblocks in the faster music. I got the CD for the op 134 when I was exploring op 130 and op 133.

[mszczuj]

I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

I'm so sorry!

Then I must recommend it not because it is PI but despite it is PI.

[jlaurson]

Beethoven Question regarding Scherchen:





I have conflicting information on Scherchen's Beethoven. The Westminster Set contains the complete performances split between only the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (WStOpO) and the would-be LPO? (And which ones by which orchestra?)

But the Tahra differs in adding the VSO 3 and switching RPO for LPO? Or what's the deal? Soloists in the 9th are the same. Or is it simply a misprint on the LP?

And the Archipel set claims what?

Thanks much & best.

Hermann   Scherchen   WStOpO (1,6,7,9), VSO (3), RPO (2,4,5,8)   Magda Laszlo, Hilde Roessel-Majdan, Petre Munteanu, Richard Standen,  Wiener Singakademie   Westminster   Archipel      1951   1954
Hermann   Scherchen   LPO, WStOpO            SAME but gives fewer orchestras and different ones      

[Jo498]

I only have the Archipel and no independent source to double check; Archipel does not even tell which orchestra for which  symphony but as recording dates
1 November 54
2 Septemeber 54
3 October 53
4 September 54
5 Septemer 54
6 June 51
7 June 51
8 October 54
9 July 53

But I am pretty sure that this is just the Westminster mono set, so the orchestras will be as you know from the LPs. To my knowledge only the 3rd and 6th were re-recorded in stereo (1958) and there is a bunch of later live? recordings with a Swiss or Italian Radio orchestra
In any case the later (stereo) recordings of the 3rd and 6th are clearly different from the ones in the Archipel set. Stereo and much faster tempi (especially in the respective first movements, both of which are probably the fastest in the catalogue).

[jlaurson]

I only have the Archipel and no independent source to double check; Archipel does not even tell which orchestra for which  symphony but as recording dates

Archipel                        Tahra:
1 November 54             x - VStOp, June 54
2 Septemeber 54          x - RPO, September 54
3 October 53                x - VSO (!), January 51
4 September 54           x - RPO, September 54
5 Septemer 54             x - RPO, September 54
6 June 51                     x - VStOp, August 51
7 June 51                     x - VStOp, August 51
8 October 54                x - RPO, September 54
9 July 53                      x - VStOp, September 53

But I am pretty sure that this is just the Westminster mono set, so the orchestras will be as you know from the LPs. To my knowledge only the 3rd and 6th were re-recorded in stereo (1958) and there is a bunch of later live? recordings with a Swiss or Italian Radio orchestra
In any case the later (stereo) recordings of the 3rd and 6th are clearly different from the ones in the Archipel set. Stereo and much faster tempi (especially in the respective first movements, both of which are probably the fastest in the catalogue).

I've found a place (now promptly forgotten, amidst my frantic googling, where the orchestras of the Andromeda are given as the LP says: VStOp & LPO. Archipel, I mean. Well, one of the re-issues.

So the RPO indications of the Tahra releases are just someone who was confused?

Above I compare what the Tahra releases say with what you put down.

Only the 2nd, 4th, and 5th agree on dates. Given that that includes two three of the LPO/RPO performances, we can probably safely assume that Scherchen did not record the same symphony with two London Orchestras in town, twice in one month... and that Thara simply goofed on these indications as per RPO and from thereon extrapolate that they just mixed the orchestras up. No?

The date on the 3rd and the indication of the VSO would indicate a bonafide different performance, I reckon.. and the other dates, which are off by a few months... I'm not sure that I trust people to confuse RPO and LPO to deal with roman numerals. Maybe VII for them was meant to be June?

There's a complete later cycle with the Orchestra della Svizzera Italiana on Arioso from 1965.

[EigenUser]

So why don't you just listen to the piece? What's keeping you away? And do not forget the 3rd! And the 4th piano concerto, and...

Haha, you're too practical for me .

I did listen to parts of the 9th on the way home from class today. I started off with Missa Solemnis, but changed my mind. I definitely want to hear the whole thing.

BTW, I do like the 3rd symphony and the 4th PC (and the 5th PC, for that matter).

[Drasko]

So the RPO indications of the Tahra releases are just someone who was confused?

I think more likely is that Archipel/Andromeda/whicheverpiratenext got confused than Tahra which is run by Myriam Scherchen, Hermann's daughter.

EMI Great Conductors of 20th Century volume devoted to Scherchen names the orchestra for Beethoven's 8th to be Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

[jlaurson]

I think more likely is that Archipel/Andromeda/whicheverpiratenext got confused than Tahra which is run by Myriam Scherchen, Hermann's daughter.

EMI Great Conductors of 20th Century volume devoted to Scherchen names the orchestra for Beethoven's 8th to be Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

That's good to know about the EMI. You have a point, with Myriam Scherchen being behind Tahra. Then, rather shocking still, the LP issued by Westminster (as in the picture above) gives the wrong orchestra?! Someone, while translating, goofed?

[Drasko]

Then, rather shocking still, the LP issued by Westminster (as in the picture above) gives the wrong orchestra?! Someone, while translating, goofed?

Not necessarily. Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London is probably just nom-de-plume for RPO recording out of contract.

[jlaurson]

Not necessarily. Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London is probably just nom-de-plume for RPO recording out of contract.

You're absolutely right!

...Westminster's orchestras were Beecham's Royal Philharmonic (without Beecham) - renamed the "Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London" ...

And the dates of Scherchen's recordings are notoriously uncertain; I'd trust Tahra with that, given his daughter's access to sources.

[Jo498]

I'd also rather trust Tahra.
Archipel is basically a pirate, I think, but it was cheaper and available before the Tahra twofers... It's really a shame that DG has been sitting on the Westminster catalogue, except for a bunch of single discs (and the Scherchen Haydn recordings, event those weren't complete, excluding the sinfonia concertante and the stereo 100). Although the stereo 3 and 6 and the 8 (which was also on EMI great conductors) are the most important ones, I think.

Those strange orchestra names are another puzzle. I am not even sure it is completely clear who played as "Vienna State opera orchestra". It was certainly NOT the Vienna Philharmonic (which is an elite subset from the pool of the state opera players). I think I once read that it actually was the orchestra of the "Volksoper".

[Mandryka]

Beethoven Question regarding Scherchen:





I have conflicting information on Scherchen's Beethoven. The Westminster Set contains the complete performances split between only the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (WStOpO) and the would-be LPO? (And which ones by which orchestra?)

But the Tahra differs in adding the VSO 3 and switching RPO for LPO? Or what's the deal? Soloists in the 9th are the same. Or is it simply a misprint on the LP?

And the Archipel set claims what?

Thanks much & best.

Hermann   Scherchen   WStOpO (1,6,7,9), VSO (3), RPO (2,4,5,8)   Magda Laszlo, Hilde Roessel-Majdan, Petre Munteanu, Richard Standen,  Wiener Singakademie   Westminster   Archipel      1951   1954
Hermann   Scherchen   LPO, WStOpO            SAME but gives fewer orchestras and different ones

RPO = Royal Philharmonic Orchestra = Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London = London Philharmonic Orchestra = LPO. They must have got the "royal" monica at some point, like the National Theatre and the Festival Hall.

[jlaurson]

RPO = Royal Philharmonic Orchestra = Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London = London Philharmonic Orchestra = LPO. They must have got the "royal" monica at some point, like the National Theatre and the Festival Hall.

Nononono, the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra is decidedly not identical with the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Two very different orchestras that I've both heard live in their respective venues.

Drasko was right on, with his hunch: "...Westminster's orchestras were Beecham's Royal Philharmonic (without Beecham) - renamed the "Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London" ..."

Those strange orchestra names are another puzzle. I am not even sure it is completely clear who played as "Vienna State opera orchestra". It was certainly NOT the Vienna Philharmonic (which is an elite subset from the pool of the state opera players). I think I once read that it actually was the orchestra of the "Volksoper".

The VStOp-moniker isn't so difficult; after the war the pool of about 200 State Orchestra players served both operas... the Volksoper AND the State Opera. It is indeed doubtful that many of the members included in these recordings are identical with those who were also members of the elect Vienna Philharmonic.

[SonicMan46]

Just left the post below in the listening thread (soon to be buried) - so might interest those here who frequent this one - love Crawford's restored 1835 fortepiano - have not done any A-B comparisons w/ my Ronald Brautigam performances of the same works, but some brief comparative comments were made in the Fanfare review contained in the PDF file.

Beethoven, LV - Piano Sonatas, 78,81a,90,101 - Penelope Crawford's 2nd recording (first one from 2010; current release recorded in 2013 & 2014) - performed on her restored Conrad Graf (Wien, 1835) fortepiano - listening to the first CD now and the performances and sound are pretty much the same, i.e. excellent - I cannot find any reviews of this new release, but there are several in the PDF file attached of the other recording; also if interested, check out this somewhat heated exchange of comments between the colorful and contrarian Bernard Michael O'Hanlon & Peter Watchorn on Amazon HERE; BTW, Watchorn wrote the liner notes for this new release which of course is on his label.  Dave

P.S. I included a pic of a Conrad Graf fortepiano from the same time period - the image in the booklet showed similar identification detail above the keyboard.

 

 

[EigenUser]

Any other fans of LvB's 8th? I've heard it a few times over the past few days. The finale reminds me a bit of the finale from Schumann's 2nd. I love it.

[North Star]

Any other fans of LvB's 8th? I've heard it a few times over the past few days. The finale reminds me a bit of the finale from Schumann's 2nd. I love it.

Igor Stravinsky and I, at least.

[EigenUser]

Igor Stravinsky and I, at least.

Was Stravinsky well-known to particularly like it?

I love the sudden key changes in the finale from E to F (the quiet pulsing quarter notes in the lower sections of the orchestra -- happens twice, I think). It sounds too modern for LvB!