Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Karl Henning]

. . . even a critic as smart as John Simon can write such foolishness as this:

He really thinks much too highly of himself, if he fancies he could "predict" Bach's or Mozart's work, charting any sort of mathematical model.

Well, maybe he'd just had a fantastic fillet of halibut, and was overcome with an invincible sense of bien-être . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

He really thinks much too highly of himself, if he fancies he could "predict" Bach's or Mozart's work, charting any sort of mathematical model.

Maybe so, and he has a well-earned reputation for gratuitous personal vindictive towards actors (mainly actresses whose looks displease him), but the distinction is that when he is on target, few write as well as he. (See, for example, his essay for the Criterion release of that most wonderful of romantic comedies, Bergman's Smiles of a Summer Night, which you can read for free on the Criterion website.)

As for "predictability" in Bach or Mozart, I've always held that the rhythmic subtleties in the opening bars of the Figaro overture rival anything in Stravinsky, and the Così overture, which I've been studying a lot lately, has all kinds of unpredictable elements in the way Mozart plays with sonata-form conventions, assigns his instruments to the various themes, uses invertible counterpoint, sometimes presents a motif in 4-bar and other times in 2-bar forms, etc. These subtleties may not be obvious to the "naked ear," but they prevent the music from becoming routine, and help account for why it remains delightful over repeated listenings.

But perhaps the above belongs in a Mozart thread.

[Brian]

As for "predictability" in Bach or Mozart, I've always held that the rhythmic subtleties in the opening bars of the Figaro overture rival anything in Stravinsky, and the Così overture, which I've been studying a lot lately, has all kinds of unpredictable elements in the way Mozart plays with sonata-form conventions, assigns his instruments to the various themes, uses invertible counterpoint, sometimes presents a motif in 4-bar and other times in 2-bar forms, etc. These subtleties may not be obvious to the "naked ear," but they prevent the music from becoming routine, and help account for why it remains delightful over repeated listenings.

Additionally, I think the naturalness with which Mozart and Beethoven handle eccentric rhythms, unpredictable elements, etc., can blind Simon to how innovative those elements may be. Whatever odd shenanigans the young or middle-period Beethoven got to in his scores, they may not feel, bar-to-bar and note-to-note, disruptive or unpredictable. The logic is strong enough that we can miss how unusual some of those elements may be.

There's also the Citizen Kane effect - you know, where an intro to film student asks the teacher, "I've seen this camera work in every movie since Kane, so what makes Kane special?"

[Karl Henning]

Hah!

[(poco) Sforzando]

can blind Simon . . .

Not just Simon . . . .

[Karl Henning]

He is not the only person to mistake the "artistry of naturalness" for "I knew that was coming."

[king ubu]

not really on topic here, I know, but why would anyone possibly dislike the Schubert octet?

[Jo498]

Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet. AFAIC I think "lesser" composers like Hummel and Spohr did some of their best work in such wind/string chamber pieces, although most of them return to the standard 4 movements.

[king ubu]

Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet. AFAIC I think "lesser" composers like Hummel and Spohr did some of their best work in such wind/string chamber pieces, although most of them return to the standard 4 movements.

Alright then - I'm definitely no expert yet, but as I really love the Schubert octet - and enjoy most of the others you mention (Beethoven, Spohr - don't know Hummel yet), I was wondering.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Beethoven septet was extremely popular when new; the only time I've heard it live, however, I confess it bored me. Perhaps another try is warranted.

No particular thoughts one way or other about the Schubert octet, which I haven't heard for years either.

[Madiel]

Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet.

Actually the criticism was flowing for both op.25 and op.8. The apparent basis of the criticism was 'too many movements' and I was mocking that as a basis for criticism.

[Jo498]

Apparently Beethoven himself was dismissive about the Septet later on, partially on account of its popularity. Maybe he felt that it eclipsed more accomplished pieces. Or he was just behaving like an irascible genius

[amw]

I actually like Op. 8 and 25 (just think they're not as good as 3 and 9) and 'too many movements' was not actually the basis for my criticism oh my goooddddd

[Madiel]

Only the string trio/flute serenade/whatever (i've heard various instrumentations) Op. 25? (The D major one with like 20 movements, you probably know what i'm talking about) is a miscalculation, and I suspect it was written as a potboiler more than a 'proper' piece of music.

Well maybe if you managed to construct a criticism that had any other content in it, I wouldn't think the utterly hyperbolic bit about 20 movements was meaningful! When you miscount 6 as 20, it sure as hell sounds like a complaint about the number of movements!

Seriously, what was the basis of your criticism? Because if it was anything else, it sure as hell isn't in your post. Complaining about the number of movements is the one solid thing you said, and it was also a very foolish thing to say.

[amw]

I'll come up with a proper criticism that uses at least 5 actual musical terms and puts forth my case in an incisive and erudite manner, leaving the entire GMG forum in awe of my wisdom at some point when it's not 3 am but basically I find them kinda meh in terms of thematic material and development.

[Madiel]

Fine. So next time say that instead of making such a juvenile cheap shot. You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts.

[Brian]

The Beethoven septet was extremely popular when new; the only time I've heard it live, however, I confess it bored me. Perhaps another try is warranted.

No particular thoughts one way or other about the Schubert octet, which I haven't heard for years either.

I think the Beethoven septet was his most popular, or most-performed, piece, during his lifetime. Could be wrong about that, but it's certainly near the top of the list, especially for his chamber music. I remember doing research on concert programs in London when I was at the British Library, and the Beethoven septet was their version of a guaranteed hit concert.

[Karl Henning]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Ken B]

Additionally, I think the naturalness with which Mozart and Beethoven handle eccentric rhythms, unpredictable elements, etc., can blind Simon to how innovative those elements may be. Whatever odd shenanigans the young or middle-period Beethoven got to in his scores, they may not feel, bar-to-bar and note-to-note, disruptive or unpredictable. The logic is strong enough that we can miss how unusual some of those elements may be.

There's also the Citizen Kane effect - you know, where an intro to film student asks the teacher, "I've seen this camera work in every movie since Kane, so what makes Kane special?"

They say Shakespeare was a good phrase-maker, but when I read I see a lot of cliches.

[Wanderer]

I think the Beethoven septet was his most popular, or most-performed, piece, during his lifetime.

It was. As a measure of its success, there are quite a number of transcriptions for piano (2 or 4 hands) and other chamber combinations.