Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

Started by BachQ, April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM

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BachQ

Beethoven Piano Concerto No 4 part 1

Dimitris Sgouros is soloist with the Czech Philharmonic conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras. 1986 Prague Spring Festival.

http://www.youtube.com/v/oTCGRDvEk-k


Que

Quote from: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 07:31:52 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz and courageously step foreward with praise, yes, PRAISE, of this performance.

Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

uffeviking

And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D

uffeviking

Quote from: D Minor on October 03, 2007, 03:02:55 AM
Thanks for the excellent review ....... of a very controversial performance.  I am now very interested in listening to Pletnev's take on LvB 9 .......  8)

and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)

BachQ

Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:45:33 PM
and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)

Well, the last thing we want/need is a run-of-the-mill interpretation of LvB's d minor symphony.  Give us fire.  Give us passion. 

Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Do you intensely like any of Pletnev's other LvB symphonies?

BachQ

Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D

As to Ruslan und Ludmilla, the faster the better ........  :D

uffeviking

I only completed my second run-through and am still catching one surprise after another. Takes time to sort them all out, but the Pastoral knocked me for a loop. That's the one Disney used with black and white horses flying through the sky? Correct me if I am wrong; but I stayed away from that one after the Disney experience. And there is this lovely picture of meadows, trees, mountains rain and a violent thunderstorm. It hit me: 'That's the Pastoral!' Pletnev taught me again what a wonderful symphony Beethoven composed for us, erased the Disney maltreatment and memory.

Pletnev also made me pay attention to the First, one that is so often overlooked.

The one I 'intensely' like is of course the Seventh. It always was my favourite of the nine, especially the one with Kleiber. I really looked forward to hearing the Pletnev version and was stunned when in the beginning I thought I had made a mistake and played the Kleiber disc! Only later on, especially the last movement is pure Pletnev. There too is fire and passion aplenty!

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 07:31:52 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz.

In all honesty, people on various classical message boards scorn and ridicule Hurwitz all the time.

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: Que on October 03, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

That's for sure:

Quote"L'autre chose" de Pletnev c'est un système dans lequel les notes de Beethoven servent de substrat à des clowneries de rythmes et de phrasés. "Bozo" Pletnev s'amuse avec le texte beethovénien comme un enfant avec un yoyo.

uffeviking

At least he expresses a sense of humour - as much as I can translate his opinion! - I bet it doesn't bother Pletnev one bit to be called a Bozo, - or a child playing with it's yo-yo - that is if he even bothers to read all of the reviews. He has more important things to do: Prepare himself for a new concert or recital or whatever, study and memorise scores, rehearse with his musicians, among other things musicians do with their spare time.

I wonder if Alex Ross is working on a review of this series!  ;)



BachQ

#531
Quote from: Que on October 03, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

Here's an ALTAVISTA translation. 

The match is tight, the wild competition: who, of David Porcelijn and the Symphony orchestra of Tasmanie (discs ABC, into which the idea of genius of the chief is to introduce a pianoforte obligato into all the symphonies) or of Mikhaïl Pletnev with its National Orchestra of Russia, engraved the worst integral of the Symphonies of Beethoven? One will announce start which the "bad" adjective is in fact a synonym of "grotesque" or "ridiculous". One will also raise that one of the two rivals is published by the worthy house Deutsche Grammophon, which, in its case, adds "scandalous" to the list of the adjectives.

The orchestra even is not to him basically causes some, even if it seems hazardous to engrave a 3e and one 7th Symphony of Beethoven with a whole with the horns at this point absent. The desks of horns however historically contributed to the glory and the personality of the Russian full orchestras. With which it fault? No interest to rule on this point, since Mihkaïl Pletnev largely made the proof (cf its Tchaïkovski integral) of its incapacity "to balance" an orchestra polyphoniquement.

Among the objectively ridiculous elements of this box one will announce the "youyouyou" sopranos of the choir (ah! The two last minutes of 9th it is something...). That made since the Seventies and Eighties which one however included/understood that the tired voices of opera do not make the best forces choral societies in these cases of figure. Except that there is no there "error", fundamental. The error it is obviously the casting and the product.

The artistic project is summarized very simply and one will recognize at least in Pletnev triple constancy: the unit of vision throughout cycle; aesthetic coincidence between its taste of pianist and that as a chief; homogeneity in its massacre beethovénien. The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. "Bozo" Pletnev has fun with the text beethovénien like a child with a yoyo. Quickly-slow-vite/accélérer-to slow down: the circus lasts six hours. The perfect synthesis of the horror concentrates at the beginning of the Pastoral one: an entry kind Jochum power 10 (with large idle in love at the end with the sentence) then a racing which seems caused by a puncture of tarantula.

The Heroic one is another abyssal moment, when, in the 1st movement at the time of the repeated agreements each agreement slows down, as if it were to be asséné. Pletnev wants "to do something", but it does anything and with a taste of [ what you will want ]. Horrors, there is as that in the least recesses (listen to the 3e movement of the 2e Symphonie). One starts to include/understand the utility of these mannerisms when it is noted that Pletnev is viscéralement unable to make live a movement or a sentence. In its (rare) moments of sobriety, its beaten is stiff and it does not know how to enrich a development (cf 1st movement of the 7th Symphony).

The publication of this box is a shame for Deutsche Grammophon. One is estomaqué and scandalized to note that the honor even this glorious house was to be sold, in his most invaluable bastion; Beethoven.

-- Christophe Huss

BachQ

Speaking of LvB 9, Lilas Pastia has formulated an opinion regarding the new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst (Jan 2007).  His 3-pronged formulation focuses on the conductor's Presentation, Execution, and Conception.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 19, 2007, 06:23:22 PM
Beethoven, symphony no. 9. This is a new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst. Live from Severance Hall, Jan 2007. I'll go straight out and tout this as a major recording.

1) Presentation: although it's a live occasion, no coughs or instrumental flubs are heard. The recording is strange: although very transparent, it boasts low frequencies that give a solar plexus blow every time double basses have the upper hand (more often than you'd think). Anyhow, the large scale chorus (at least 125 if one is to believe the picture) is heard with clarity and fine focus.

2) Execution: just perfect IMO, but these are definitely not viennese winds or strings. Chorus sounds really great, one of the best I've heard. Due to the very fast pacing of IV, the soprano and mezzo don't amount for much (a pity - not many conductors achieve the balance between forward momentum and the women's voices' need for space to expand). Tenor Lopardo is more of a liability than an asset. I cringed when I saw his name on the cover, but I suppose his contract had to be honoured. He sounds like a throaty baritone crooning up on high :P. Bass René Pape does not disappoint - Au contraire! His is a startling, imposing contribution, achieving the balance WM probably strived for: curt and bangy, but still sounding like a human voice speaking.

3) Conception: Were it not for a full complement of repeats in the scherzo, this would be a 62 minutes reading, making it one of the faster paced versions on the market. Be that as it may, it never sounds quick. The first movement (under 15 minutes) is hectic-but-slow, measured-but-urgent, achieving a strange, almost uneasy balance between these two extremes. It does fit the movement's character. The scherzo is fleet, but still not very fast. Tiimpani strokes almost underplayed (the timpanist must have been raging >:D). The movement's position in the total framework s nicely judjed. The adagio clocks in at around 14 minutes, neither fast, nor slow. It is very lyrical and sweet. No excessive profuuundity here, just an elegiac, sweet interlude. The Finale would (as it should in any decent version) calls for a detailed analysis. Suffice to say that at under 22 minutes (don't believe the timings here, they include the end's applause)  it sounds youthful yet solid, exuberant and determined yet lyrical and joyful. I like the way urgency and ecstasy are brought together in the final Tochter aus Elysium choral ejaculation.

Altogether, I thought this is a recording that is intensely honest, in the sense of being more - much more - about the composer than the conductor. No mean feat...

karlhenning

Quote from: altavista
The match is tight, the wild competition

Sounds like Henningmusick!

premont

Quote from: D Minor on October 04, 2007, 11:29:41 AM
... The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. .

Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

BachQ

Quote from: premont on October 05, 2007, 06:14:55 AM
Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.

LOL  :D

Larry Rinkel

One is estomaqué indeed.

uffeviking

"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)

BachQ

Quote from: uffeviking on October 05, 2007, 02:59:34 PM
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)

Uffe, I'm largely in agreement: music discovery should be an adventure, not some classroom exercise.  Since no one knows with precision what exactly LvB intended, the best we can do is weigh LvB's "intent" as one factor among many factors in formulating the optimal performance.  IOW, the purview of valid interpretations is wide-open, with new boundaries waiting to be explored .......and with new messages and meanings waiting to be discovered and expressed.

As much as with any composer, LvB wanted his scores to breathe with life, with vital energy surging with each passing bar.  Great composers deliberately infused their scores with hidden complexities and latent beauties, leaving it for only the most gifted and adventurous of conductors to unleash each hidden gem.

(again, I haven't heard the Pletnev versions)