Bach: Genius or Not?

[Sergeant Rock]

Is that the same as the SPD?   

  ...nice pun, Cato.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Notwithstanding the fact that, by the time Bach came around, those musical forms already bore little relation to the original dances from which they inherited their rhythmic scheme (I.E., you can't dance to any of them)

If they are played correctly, one certainly can dance to them.

those forms were utilized by many other baroque composers as well. Same goes for the use of Lutheran chorales. Yet, none of those composers was Bach. Should i really berate on that?  

Our point being: Bach didn't just pull the music out of his immortal ass. He was a product of his environment, influenced by what he heard, just like every one else (he didn't compose ragas, he composed jigs). That he did more with what he'd been given...well, no question about that.

Sarge

[jwinter]

Is this really that complicated to understand? There are hundreds upon hundreds of artists who inherited the same type of influences as the aforementioned masters

That's precisely what I'm arguing, that Bach didn't compose in a vacuum, that his music was influenced by many outside forces.  Of course he brought something unique to the process -- call it genius if you like.  But you need both sides of the equation for art to exist, which your previous statements seemed to refute.  Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[Harry]

And facts are a poor substitute for Truth, bwahahahahaahaahaaaa!

Have some dignity Karl, and stop being the self appointed jester on GMG.

[karlhenning]

I appreciate your solicitous remark, Harry.

One question: Did Shakespeare lack for dignity when he wrote the drunk porter scene in Macbeth (II.iii)?

[Dr. Dread]

Have some dignity Karl, and stop being the self appointed jester on GMG.

Says the self-appointed dictator. You're not the boss of him! 

[knight66]

Also remember.....we know next to nothing about that other great writer; Homer....(not the Simpson one greg).

And as Sarge wrote.....yes, the dances can indeed be danced to; I have seen it done.

Of course, this is that old LP form JDPs small, scratched collection: 'The Genius 12 incher'.

Mike

[karlhenning]

I didn't think there was material for more than an EP, Mike . . . .

[knight66]

Well, an engorged 8" EP maketh:


A 12" LP; very long, much played, worn out.


Mike

[karlhenning]

One of the shortcomings of the sandstone stylus, I guess . . . .

[Cato]

  ...nice pun, Cato.

Sarge

Wocka Wocka!

Now what was this topic about?  "Weird and sort of sad..."

Must be talking about a Yale man!   0:)

[karlhenning]

Are there any motifs here today?

[Cato]

Are there any motifs here today?

Is that Omar Motif?   

[Frumaster]

If they are played correctly, one certainly can dance to them.


Our point being: Bach didn't just pull the music out of his immortal ass. He was a product of his environment, influenced by what he heard, just like every one else (he didn't compose ragas, he composed jigs). That he did more with what he'd been given...well, no question about that.

Sarge

Product of the environment?    For all we know, there was a indeed a spiritual element that spoke through Bach, so as to constitute genius.  If not, where were all the other Bach's that the environment was spitting out?  Even within his own family (and a large one at that), no one accomplished anywhere close to what J.S. did.  The fact that we even have to argue about Bach's "immortal ass" says quite enough.

[knight66]

I do not think that anyone was arguing about his ability; only the issue that his work appeared from a vacuum, which it conspicuously did not.

Mike

[jwinter]

I do not think that anyone was arguing about his ability; only the issue that his work appeared from a vacuum, which it conspicuously did not.

Mike

Precisely.  Obviously, environment alone doesn't create a Bach; but it's hard to argue that it doesn't contribute to a Bach in some fashion...

[jhar26]

That may be what some rap has become now that it's gone mainstream, but orbital is correct: the genre was born of a cultural need to assert and express the black experience, including the negative. One of the first great rap songs was The Message...which still has a message today. It's not wise to stereotype any form of music, including rap and classical 

Sarge

The 'definitive' rap song - although it wasn't called rap at the time - is James Brown's 'Say it Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud' as far as I'm concerned.

[Bulldog]

Nonsense. The music of Bach draws from Bach, and had nothing to do with aristocratic hoedowns or anything whatsoever that is outside Bach. 

I don't understand how anyone familiar with Bach's music could think that it was not influenced by the music before him or his environment.  After all, he didn't live an isolated life in an Alaskan igloo.

[karlhenning]

I don't understand how anyone familiar with Bach's music could think that it was not influenced by the music before him or his environment.  After all, he didn't live an isolated life in an Alaskan igloo.

Well, an Alaskan igloo where he transcribed some Vivaldi, for instance.

(I know why Gurn siphoned this off, and he was right to do it . . . still, it is Weird, and sort of sad...)

[nut-job]

I don't understand how anyone familiar with Bach's music could think that it was not influenced by the music before him or his environment.  After all, he didn't live an isolated life in an Alaskan igloo.

I also don't see how there is any contradiction between the idea that Bach was influenced by his contemporaries and environment, and that he is a "genius," whatever that means.  People use the word "genius" to describe such disparate peoples and skills that the word has little definite meaning to my ears.