Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 26, 2009, 08:39:39 AM

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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Renfield on May 11, 2009, 07:01:34 AM
Toscanini 1939 (best remastering I know on M&A, but part of the complete cycle) is very possibly better, if you don't count the sound; especially since you know Toscanini 1952's carbon-copy, the 1963 Karajan. :)

I also think Opus Kura might have a better remastering of the Weingartner than Naxos, though the latter (which I have) is eminently listenable.


Ah, but I MUST count the sound, at least a little. :)  Toscanini is on record (no pun) as saying that the 52 is his first satisfactory recorded performance. Interesting comment from you though: Karajan '63 follows Tosc. pretty closely in its execution?

Thanks,
8)
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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: jwinter on May 11, 2009, 07:07:09 AM
I have Naxos for both the Weingartner and the Fried -- obviously given their vintage they both sound like crap, but that said they're both quite listenable by historical standards, there's nothing obviously wrong with the remastering, and I wouldn't hesitate to check them out if the price is good.

Well, that's truly the most I expect. I want to listen for various orchestral idiosyncrasies, and things like what repeats are taken and tempi etc., So in that case, I could easily be quite satisfied with what you are describing. :)


Thanks,
8)
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Renfield

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 07:23:39 AM
Interesting comment from you though: Karajan '63 follows Tosc. pretty closely in its execution?

Indeed. :) If I might put on my 'Karajan nerd' hat for a second, I believe Karajan literally had the 1952 Toscanini 9th constantly on the ready in the recording studio, as his reference whenever he had doubt about how a certain passage should be treated. (This is from Osborne's book.)


More anecdotally, his entire 1963 cycle seems largely a tribute to Toscanini: that would certainly explain his spectacular failure at the 6th, in trying to 'rigourise' it as the Maestro (who, however, had the artistic maturity to understand when things should not be rushed) might have wanted.

(The latter is, however, my theory - to be taken as such!)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Renfield on May 11, 2009, 09:23:09 AM
Indeed. :) If I might put on my 'Karajan nerd' hat for a second, I believe Karajan literally had the 1952 Toscanini 9th constantly on the ready in the recording studio, as his reference whenever he had doubt about how a certain passage should be treated. (This is from Osborne's book.)


More anecdotally, his entire 1963 cycle seems largely a tribute to Toscanini: that would certainly explain his spectacular failure at the 6th, in trying to 'rigourise' it as the Maestro (who, however, had the artistic maturity to understand when things should not be rushed) might have wanted.

(The latter is, however, my theory - to be taken as such!)

That's interesting. I am not a scholar of conductors, and was unaware of Toscanini's influence on von Karajan. I would have thought Furtwängler or maybe Klemperer if I had been pressed for an answer. :)

8)
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jwinter

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 09:40:39 AM
That's interesting. I am not a scholar of conductors, and was unaware of Toscanini's influence on von Karajan. I would have thought Furtwängler or maybe Klemperer if I had been pressed for an answer. :)

8)

Certainly not Furtwangler -- from everything I've read, they hated each other's guts...  I have to admit, I don't hear a lot of Toscanini when I listen to Karajan -- I'll have to keep that in mind next time I give it a spin.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: jwinter on May 11, 2009, 09:57:32 AM
Certainly not Furtwangler -- from everything I've read, they hated each other's guts...  I have to admit, I don't hear a lot of Toscanini when I listen to Karajan -- I'll have to keep that in mind next time I give it a spin.

Oh, I just pulled that name out of a hat (well, a German hat), wasn't trying to make a credible association there. But since I have an earlier Karajan (Philharmonia) that (isn't dated, but maybe 1954??) is close in time to the 52 Toscanini, a comparison could be interesting. :)

8)
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Scarpia

#86
Karajan may have had an affinity with Toscanini, but he had a longstanding friendship with da Sabata and often expressed professional admiration for him.


Renfield

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 10:08:10 AM
Oh, I just pulled that name out of a hat (well, a German hat), wasn't trying to make a credible association there. But since I have an earlier Karajan (Philharmonia) that (isn't dated, but maybe 1954??) is close in time to the 52 Toscanini, a comparison could be interesting. :)

8)

Actually, I'd say the Philharmonia cycle is the much more 'Karajan' than anything else - it's the cycle he did after he acquired the 'reins' of his dream orchestra that seems to be where he made a point of going with Toscanini, interpretatively.

In general, however, it is (or would seem to be - I am no musicologist either) correct that there is a substantial influence by Furtwängler on Karajan, quite audible in the said Philharmonia cycle, despite my comment above; and then again very prominently in the very last, 1980's one.


Quote from: Scarpia on May 11, 2009, 10:13:59 AM
Karajan may have had an affinity with Toscanini, but he had a longstanding friendship with da Sabata and often expressed professional admiration for him.

I don't remember ever reading about this, but it's hardly surprising, given Karajan's general affinity for the 'Italian school'.

Also, welcome back. :)

Scarpia

Quote from: Renfield on May 11, 2009, 11:32:46 AM
I don't remember ever reading about this, but it's hardly surprising, given Karajan's general affinity for the 'Italian school'.

Also, welcome back. :)

de Sabata was the one who helped Karajan escape to Italy in the final days of the war.  I also remember reading a few quotes of Karajan where he speaks of de Sabata an inspiration or mentor, although don't recall exactly where. 

And thanks!

Sorin Eushayson

About this issue with the tempo in the march: if Norrington is far too slow and Gardiner is far too fast some might prefer the tempo Immerseel keeps.  He strikes a satisfying middle ground in this passage, though I find he's a tad too slow through the first few movements.  Just my two cents!  ;D

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 11, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
About this issue with the tempo in the march: if Norrington is far too slow and Gardiner is far too fast some might prefer the tempo Immerseel keeps.  He strikes a satisfying middle ground in this passage, though I find he's a tad too slow through the first few movements.  Just my two cents!  ;D

Yes, it's fair to say that Immerseel keeps more of a tempo ordinaire than your average "HIP" conductor. Since this is the most recently recorded of my period instrument performances, it will be interesting to see if this is the new trend; i.e. - getting away from the sometimes frenetic pace that "HIP" performance adopted in the early days. Don't know, just wondering out loud... :)

8)


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Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on May 11, 2009, 10:13:59 AM
Karajan may have had an affinity with Toscanini, but he had a longstanding friendship with da Sabata and often expressed professional admiration for him.



Check out the Karajan's biography written by Richard Osborne.  I have that book and it was a great read ...

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 06:44:35 AM
As you see, my choices are all landmarks of one sort or another (like Fricsay being the first stereo).

How interesting. Do you mean landmarks as in:

Fried - first recording
Weingartner - first electrical recording
Toscanini - first LP recording

Something like that? Or something else entirely?

Weingartner's might be an interesting choice. It's been ages since I've heard anything by him but he's always had a place in my heart as the "historical age's" more 'classicist' man. Less interventionist yet no less interesting as a musician.

As far as transfers, for bang for your buck Naxos with MOT and Marston is hard to beat. Best transfer guys in the business at budget price. Though I couldn't say if they've actually transfered any of the three recordings you list.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2009, 08:55:37 PM
How interesting. Do you mean landmarks as in:

Fried - first recording
Weingartner - first electrical recording
Toscanini - first LP recording

Something like that? Or something else entirely?

Weingartner's might be an interesting choice. It's been ages since I've heard anything by him but he's always had a place in my heart as the "historical age's" more 'classicist' man. Less interventionist yet no less interesting as a musician.

As far as transfers, for bang for your buck Naxos with MOT and Marston is hard to beat. Best transfer guys in the business at budget price. Though I couldn't say if they've actually transfered any of the three recordings you list.

Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. :)  Add the Fricsay (first stereo recording) and it makes a trail to follow. Although Weingartner did make a recording in 1926, before Fried. :-\

Anyway, yes, Naxos have done both the Fried and the Weingartner (they are on the way to my house as we speak), and the Toscanini is readily available anyway. I was just wanting to try and listen to the historical trail of this work, without putting fried eggs in my ears... ;D  Good to see your recommendation of these transfers, or at least of the people who did them.

8)
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Sorin Eushayson

#94
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 05:09:39 PM
...it will be interesting to see if this is the new trend; i.e. - getting away from the sometimes frenetic pace that "HIP" performance adopted in the early days.

Give me frenetic tempi or give me death!!!  ;D

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 13, 2009, 05:45:49 PM
Give me frenetic tempi or give me death!!!  ;D

On Bach, it sounds good... :D  I'm not saying I don't like it (in the Beethoven), I'm just wondering out loud if things are beginning to change. :)

8)

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Valentino

Good would be being as fast as written without sounding frenetic, I think.
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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 06:08:03 AM
Good would be being as fast as written without sounding frenetic, I think.

Oh, yes indeed. And that is the challenge of the piece for conductors, I think. There are so many elements in play, and each is vitally important. To keep them all sorted out and blended correctly is the real challenge. Through most of the 19th century, it was performed with 2 conductors, one for the orchestra and one for the singers. I haven't seen it done this way during the recording era though. :)

8)

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Coopmv

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2009, 07:23:39 AM
Ah, but I MUST count the sound, at least a little. :)  Toscanini is on record (no pun) as saying that the 52 is his first satisfactory recorded performance. Interesting comment from you though: Karajan '63 follows Tosc. pretty closely in its execution?

Thanks,
8)

Unfortunately, most Toscanini's recordings are monaural.  Orchestral music recorded in mono just does not sound too nice.  Here is the only known stereo recording Toscanini had made and I have the CD ...




Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:21:55 AM
Unfortunately, most Toscanini's recordings are monaural.  Orchestral music recorded in mono just does not sound too nice.  Here is the only known stereo recording Toscanini had made and I have the CD ...





Yes, I saw that one on Amazon and was tempted. :)  But I am not wanting to have every recording of it, rather, a good representation of how different conductors approached the work. And Toscanini is indispensable in that sort of review, wouldn't you say? So I avoided the earliest recordings, which he didn't like either, and went for the earliest one that he thought was adequate. It should be here today, so I will find out soon enough! If it isn't what I expect, the one you rec'd was my next choice.  ;)

In yesterday's mail came Berlin Opera Orchestra / Oskar Fried (1929), and I'm going to cheat a little bit and listen to it today while ripping it. A little surprise came from looking at the total time. 61:16, and it doesn't come from skipping repeats. I'm looking forward to hearing how he accomplishes this feat. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Royal Liverpool PO / Mackerras - Symphony #6 in F Op 68 1st mvmt - Pleasant, cheerful feelings awakened on arrival in the countryside: Allegro ma non troppo
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)