Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

[Coopmv]

NBC Orchestra / Toscanini (1952) finally arrived

I zipped through this set when I first got it and really have not developed any long-lasting impression in the recordings.  Karajan was supposed to follow Toscanini closely early in his career ...

[Gurn Blanston]

 

I zipped through this set when I first got it and really have not developed any long-lasting impression in the recordings.  Karajan was supposed to follow Toscanini closely early in his career ...

Yes, someone mentioned that, and I plan on listening to Toscanini 52 followed closely by Karajan 55 to see if there are similarities in any peculiarities I may hear. One would expect the early Karajan to be more Toscanini-esque before he was solidly set in his own idiom if at all.



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 12 Trio in Eb for Strings 3rd mvmt - Tempo di Menuet

[Coopmv]

Yes, someone mentioned that, and I plan on listening to Toscanini 52 followed closely by Karajan 55 to see if there are similarities in any peculiarities I may hear. One would expect the early Karajan to be more Toscanini-esque before he was solidly set in his own idiom if at all.

Bruno Walter was another conductor from across the pond that Karajan followed closely before WWII.

[Gurn Blanston]

 

Bruno Walter was another conductor from across the pond that Karajan followed closely before WWII.

Yes, I've read that. I am sorely lacking a performance by him. Any rec's?



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 20 Trio in G for Strings 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

[Coopmv]

Yes, I've read that. I am sorely lacking a performance by him. Any rec's?



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 20 Trio in G for Strings 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

Someone recommended this recording a while back but I have not bought it yet ...

[Gurn Blanston]

   

Someone recommended this recording a while back but I have not bought it yet ...

Yes, but the 9 appears to be upside down...  



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Gurn Blanston]

I see one with the Columbia Symphony on Sony from 1959. Stereo. Perhaps it is the only choice right now?



At Amazon

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Listening to: Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro[/url]

[Coopmv]

Yes, but the 9 appears to be upside down...  



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro

This could be a good one.  I have bought quite a few historical recordings on ORFEO ...



I have this Karajan 9th as well ...

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, that Orfeo does look like a good 'un. I'll have to have a go at that one. Thanks.



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

[Coopmv]

Yes, that Orfeo does look like a good 'un. I'll have to have a go at that one. Thanks.



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

The Karajan 9th shown above has lots of raw energy and not legato'ed to death like Karajan's recordings from the 70's.

[Holden]

I see one with the Columbia Symphony on Sony from 1959. Stereo. Perhaps it is the only choice right now?



At Amazon

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Listening to: Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro[/url]

It's the 'dog' of the BW LvB cycle and mainly because of the soloists and choir. I haven't heard the Orfeo but I have a much better 9th from Walter



This is the 1949 recording with the '53 ' IV inserted. What happened to the rest of the '53 performance.

I also have the complete 1949 performance with the original soloists

[jlaurson]

Like a rash, every so often a "Favorite LvB 9th" discussion seems to break out. 

Here's a little three-partite list of my favorites (in five different, somewhat arbitrarily construed categories):

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (Part 1)

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (Part 2)

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (Part 3)

In brief:

"Historic"
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Furtwängler in Lucerne

"Burnished"
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin

"HIP"
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Gardiner/ ORR

"Modern"
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Vänskä / Minnesota Orchestra

"Standard"
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Abbado / BPh - Salzburg

My true favorites being Abbado/Salzburg (!!), Barenboim, Fricsay (!)

[knight66]

I have just looked out my modest list of thr 9th.

Furtwangler 51Live
Toscanini 52
Karajan 62
Bernstein 80 Live
Mackerras 91
Katsaris on piano, my favourite

I have started some comparative listening on the first two. I suppose I could have written the following without listening, but just to look at the first movement for a moment. Toscanini is tauter, he has a plan a route, he energizes everyone through it.  

Furtwangler feels more as though the performance is an exploration; it is much slower, with more inbuilt ebb and flow. He starts the symphony more 'tentatively' a mystery, conjuring something out of the silence; and when that opening returns, again, it seems uncertain. I am not referring to some inadequacy; it is about an approach and bringing different things out of the music. Toscanini has certainty, everything well drilled including the opening, it is very exciting indeed. I wonder though whether he fulfills the poco maestoso?

Back with Furtwangler, he had an altogether different kind of beat, sometimes claimed to be infirm, but I feel it was to do with the sound he wanted, a different kind of music making. I don't prefer one above the other. However, with the muscularity that Toscanini brings out of both the first and second movements, they make less of a contrast than Furtwangler finds. The mood substantially the same.

As far as the simple timings are concerned:
Toscanini comes in at the 13 minute mark for both first and second movements
Furtwangler is 17 minutes for movement 1 and only 12 for the second, Molto vivace' movement.

The bar by bar rhythms are not leapt upon by F, whereas for Toscanini in that second movement, the propulsion is as much about striking the rhythms, hitting the beats as it is about speed. There are many differences of approach. Even within the shorter second movement timings, Furtwangler uses more flexibility in speed.

Moving onto the third movement; Furtwangler's performance has some real lapses of ensemble and some intonation problems. But over all, again, it is the feeling of an exploration I enjoy, I feel part of it, as against having it all laid out for me as per Toscanini. However, the Toscanini 3rd movement is deft, not driven and is in no danger of falling apart.

Mike

[Kuhlau]

Rather than go over all my old arguments about which recordings of this work I like best and why, here's a link to my review of Rattle's much-maligned take with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra on EMI. The comments section has discussion of a few other versions I admire.

FK

[Coopmv]

Does anyone know if Eschenbach has ever recorded the Beethoven 9th?  I think he might have performed it with the Houston Symphony and NPR might have broadcast it ...

[Gurn Blanston]

Thank you all for your interesting replies. You've been busy while I slept...

Holden:
Are you saying that this '49 - '53 Walter is one that I should go for in order to hear Walter's unique style? I have heard that he has a particular touch with this work that makes him unique in his way. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't want every recording ever made (especially the historic ones), but I would like to hear the greats in action.

Jens:
Yes, although this one (as you can tell from the thread title) was not intended to be contentious in any way, nor any sort of "greatest recording of the XXX" sort of thing. It is merely a listening log for me, and a way to get people to talk about... recordings that they enjoy.   I had read one or two of your links previously and enjoyed what you had to say. If you go back to the first post here you will see that I have divided up my own recordings in a similar fashion, since that is the only way they make sense. I have since considered going back and further subdividing the "Traditional" category into stereo era and pre-historicstereo, since 1958 makes a nice dividing line stylistically anyway.

Mike:
That is a nice selection you have there. I have all of those with the exception that my 2 Furtwänglers bracket yours (I have March 42 and Lucerne 54). Interesting comments. I had overlooked adding the Katsaris to my list, and for no good reason. I've often thought that if Gould played it in his typical manner, we wouldn't even be losing out on the singing...

Kuhlau:
Interesting blog and review of Rattle there. Almost have ME wanting to get it! In any case, I did enjoy your rec of Herreweghe, that's a nice version which should be better known. Not so sure I agree with you about Vänskä, since I also enjoy IT a lot. But that's the taste difference which makes life interesting.

Coop:
If it has been done, I have never seen it on offer, and that's the sort of thing I would have noticed.

Thanks all,



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Listening to:
Gerard Poulet / Noel Lee - Saint Saëns - Op 075 Sonata #1 in d for Violin & Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro agitato - attacca

[Que]

Yes, that Orfeo does look like a good 'un. I'll have to have a go at that one. Thanks.



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Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 16 Trio in C for Strings 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

Best LvB 9th I've heard by Walter so far, sadly a flawed last movement.

Q

[Que]

It's the 'dog' of the BW LvB cycle and mainly because of the soloists and choir. I haven't heard the Orfeo but I have a much better 9th from Walter



This is the 1949 recording with the '53 ' IV inserted. What happened to the rest of the '53 performance.

I also have the complete 1949 performance with the original soloists

There is no rest of the '53 recording. Walter redid just the last mvt because he was dissatisfied with that part of the '49 recording.

Q

[Gurn Blanston]

Best LvB 9th I've heard by Walter so far, sadly a flawed last movement.

Q

That seems to be a common theme with his recordings of the 9th. Perhpas we tack the '53 last movement on to this one, too.



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Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Loius Jadin - Premiere fantasie concertante for Oboe & Piano 2nd mvmt - Andante con expressione

[knight66]

Yes, I can see from that cover illustration that Walter was unhappy about something.

I gave the Karajan 63 a whirl, well, the first three movements. I enjoyed it a great deal, steers a mid course between the Toscanini and the Furtwangler. I would be interested to know whether Karajan's earlier version is more like the Toscanini.

I see several here have the Solti Chicago version. I had it on LP and thought it was good, but I never replaced it on CD. How does it stand up?

As a footnote to Mark's review of Rattle. I don't recall the professional reviews at all. But I was in chorus for his very first performance of the 9th. He did it with a chamber orchestra I think and a large chamber choir. It was swift, clear textures, boring and did not seem to come across as having a POV. But it was his first attempt and he may well have rethought it a lot. Certainly in scale, I assume the VPO would mean the big band approach.

Mike