Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

[karlhenning]

Ah, I've seen that for sale. Special would have been nice... 0:)

Heavens, did they record that concert? I guess they would have . . . it was in the concert hall of NHK (Japan Radio).

[Gurn Blanston]

Heavens, did they record that concert? I guess they would have . . . it was in the concert hall of NHK (Japan Radio).

Don't know if it's the same one, but I saw just today on eBay, IIRC, Suitner in Japan conducting the 9th. I bought the Monteux instead.

[kaergaard]

I bet you don't have that:

http://www.ricosaccani.com/album-69.html   

[Gurn Blanston]

I bet you don't have that:

http://www.ricosaccani.com/album-69.html   

  You would be wrong and lose all your money. It is a very nice recording, done in a '70's style, and with still a fair amount of leanness, not like the old super-maestoso German style held over from the Romantic. I like it, nice tempos, good performance.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, Fricsay is excellent. It seems like no conductor can go wrong driving the BP in this work, plus he brings his own style and elegance to this work, which he has in abundance. I am intrigued by your description of the Cluytens. It really is a pity about the baß singer, it is such a crucial part!

I do not have nearly as many LvB 9's as some, but when I was just starting to learn about CM as a kid of 12 or so, I almost wore the grooves out on the choral finale side of our family's copy of Toscanini's RCA-NBC set. (It was a 7-LP set, with a very soulful photo of AT on the cover.) That version is still my touchstone for the symphony, but though at this point in my life I am less drawn to the 9th than almost any other major work from the late period, Fricsay really nails it.

My top honors for a single movement from the 9th belong however to Harnoncourt COE, and that's a set I often dislike for a number of reasons - among them, the fussy, slow, underpowered Pastorale; the prissy treatment of the ending of 8:2; the tendency throughout to avoid articulating staccatos as truly detached notes and to turn them into tenutos instead. But Harnoncourt's treatment of the slow movement of the 9th makes up for nearly everything else in that set. Taking the movement close to B's metronome mark (not quite, as the movement would last only 10 minutes if he did), he somehow manages to make it a single seamless, inevitable paragraph. And I don't know any other recording that succeeds at this so well.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for the input, Poco. That Toscanini must be the same version from 1952 that I have. It's the only one of his that's I've heard, and I feel like he impresses me more than other conductors of that time with his precision and the feeling I get like he is a servant to the music rather than the other way around.

I like the 9th the best of the works in that set of Harnoncourt's. I like the scherzo as well as that adagio.

I think there is something to like in every version I have. Some certainly have much more to like than others do, but none of them is a total loss, because the music is far larger than the performers. However, if I was choosing just one version before 1970, I am thinking right now BP / Fricsay. His is timeless.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I like the 9th the best of the works in that set of Harnoncourt's. I like the scherzo as well as that adagio.

As best I can recall, I like the outer sections of H's scherzo. But his trio exhibits that same kind of fussing with the staccatos that I hear too often in this set. I.e., they are not articulated as detached notes but have a more tenuto or semi-legato feel. I don't know why H does this, but I find it an annoying and pervasive mannerism, especially since we know from the conversation books that B was very insistent on his scores being published with the proper articulations. As a result in H's set, the lack of sharpness of attack really vitiates a lot of the music IMO.

[karlhenning]

Don't know if it's the same one, but I saw just today on eBay, IIRC, Suitner in Japan conducting the 9th.

'86-'87?

I bought the Monteux instead.

This, you won't regret ; )

[Gurn Blanston]

And it came today:



So along with this one here:



I have some listening to do. These performances are only 4 years apart (Ansermet 1958 - Monteux 1962), but I am curious whether they will display the performance style differences that were beginning to take hold right about that time. My understanding of Monteux is that he was a lean, mean conducting machine. That would make him a natural 'father figure' for conductors to come. I've only heard Ansermet doing Tchaikovsky, so it is hard to feature how his Beethoven might be. That full rich Romantic sound was right for Tchaikovsky, hope Beethoven doesn't get the same sort of treatment though!    

[Gurn Blanston]

So many 9th's, so little time. OK< well I was trying to get around to queuing up Monteux and I ran across this one that I hadn't listened to for a bit. I totally lack discipline vis-a-vis myself... Superb recording though.



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Now playing:
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic & Choir \ Sir Charles Mackerras - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Scherzo: Molto vivace - Presto - Molto vivace

[Holden]

My top honors for a single movement from the 9th belong however to Harnoncourt COE........... Harnoncourt's treatment of the slow movement of the 9th makes up for nearly everything else in that set. Taking the movement close to B's metronome mark (not quite, as the movement would last only 10 minutes if he did), he somehow manages to make it a single seamless, inevitable paragraph. And I don't know any other recording that succeeds at this so well.

This is almost worthy of a thread by itself. My top honours go to Leibowitz's Scherzo.

[Clever Hans]

As best I can recall, I like the outer sections of H's scherzo. But his trio exhibits that same kind of fussing with the staccatos that I hear too often in this set. I.e., they are not articulated as detached notes but have a more tenuto or semi-legato feel. I don't know why H does this, but I find it an annoying and pervasive mannerism, especially since we know from the conversation books that B was very insistent on his scores being published with the proper articulations. As a result in H's set, the lack of sharpness of attack really vitiates a lot of the music IMO.

The issue of classical staccato markings is not so simple, and you may be interested to read some of Clive Brown's article from Early Music on Immerseel's Beethoven cycle. Mezzo staccato or portato may be more accurate, so Harnoncourt may be exactly right!

"The question of what staccato marks mean in Beethoven has been discussed by scholars at length, not always with sufficient distinction between their implications for different instruments; they would often mean something different to a pianist than to a string or wind player whose model was the human voice. As Spohr's instructions in the Violinschule show, staccato strokes over the notes may not, for a violinist, even imply any sort of break between notes, merely separate bows. In a passage on p.118 (Bishop's translation) he explains that an eight-bar passage in quavers with staccato strokes, at a tempo of minim = 104, is to be played in the upper half of the bow so that 'in changing from the down to the up-bow or the reverse, no break or chasm may be observed'. There are other contexts, too, in which the staccato mark may have a quite different meaning from the shortening by a half referred to in many tutors (which seems particularly to derive from the length of time a pianist would depress the note on the keyboard). It is quite clear that composers often used staccato marks as a means of making clear which notes were to be slurred and which were to be separated, without necessarily indicating a sharply detached execution. In the introduction to the first movement of the Seventh Symphony, for instance, in the figure at bar 23, the first oboe's last two quavers, immediately following a slur, are marked staccato and on Immerseel's recording they are played in a very short, detached manner. Simultaneously the second oboe, clarinets and bassoons play the same rhythm as the oboe, but in notes repeated at the same pitch, without staccato marks (in these parts staccato marks are not necessary to warn the player not to slur). We cannot, of course, be certain of Beethoven's intention here, but it seems quite likely that in Oboe I he wanted something much more like the articulation we would commonly mark with horizontal lines, or lines combined with dots in modern notational practice; had he wanted a very detached execution he would surely have marked the accompanying parts staccato (as he does on the repeated quavers in the principal theme of the second movement of the same symphony). The modern musician's ingrained tendency to react to a staccato mark by distinctly shortening the note is undoubtedly unhistorical in many such instances."

Harnoncourt has also written extensively on classical musical notation, e.g.
http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Dialogue-Thoughts-Monteverdi-Paperback/dp/1574670239

[RJR]

Just wanted to say that there several moderators including Bruce, Que, Maciek, Knight... Gurn doesn't stand alone... except in perhaps obsessing over the 9th symphony.

Fine. Are any of the names that you've mentionned above familiar with Kletzki's recording of Beethoven's 9th? I listened to the first and second movements this morning, Sunday, January 9th, 2011. I was very impressed with the first movement and almost as impressed with the second. That was the best first movement I have ever heard. Lots of details in the woodwinds, strings and horns. No one section drowns out the others. The acoustics at Dvorak Hall  had a full resonance. Powerful.

[RJR]

To Gurn,
Do you have Kletzki's recording of the Ninth in your collection?
The first movement is a knockout.

[Gurn Blanston]

To Gurn,
Do you have Kletzki's recording of the Ninth in your collection?
The first movement is a knockout.

Absolutely, one of my favorite recordings. You're right, the first movement IS a standout. The rest is above average too. That was recorded in 1967 or 68, right at the time that some really great recordings were being made (the Concertgebouw / Jochum 1968 stands out). It is right there with the best of them, IMO. 


As far as moderators go, I'm the best looking of the lot (I imagine), but the others can be equally useful even though their taste in some things leaves room for improvement.



----------------
Now playing:
Smith / Banchini / Plantier / Courvoisier / Dieltens - Hob 03 006 Cassation in C for Lute, Violin & Cello 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

[RJR]

This is almost worthy of a thread by itself. My top honours go to Leibowitz's Scherzo.

I like it too. It's jocular, bouncy, humorous, sassy. It's what a scherzo should be.

[Gurn Blanston]

Collection as of 1/11/11

Year                          Orchestra                                          Conductor
1929   Berlin State Opera Orchestra                          Fried, Oscar
1935   Vienna Philharmonic                                         Weingartner, Felix
1942   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Furtwängler, Wilhelm
1948 & 53   New York Philharmonic                          Walter, Bruno
1952   Bavarian RSO                                                  Jochum, Eugen
1952   NBC Symphony                                                  Toscanini, Arturo
1953   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Furtwängler, Wilhelm
1954   Philharmonia                                                  Furtwängler, Wilhelm
1955   Philharmonia                                                  Karajan, Herbert von
1955   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Walter, Bruno
1956   Royal Philharmonic                                          Beecham, Thomas
1956   Royal Concertgebouw                                  Klemperer, Otto
1957   Philharmonia                                                  Klemperer, Otto
1958   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Cluytens, André
1958   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Fricsay, Ferenc
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande                          Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus                                          Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony                                          Reiner, Fritz
1962   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony                                          Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra                                          Szell, George
1966   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Schmidt-Isserstedt, Hans
1967   Philadelphia Orchestra                                  Ormandy, Eugene
1968   Czech Philharmonic                                          Kletzki, Paul
1969   New York Philharmonic                                  Bernstein, Leonard
1969   Royal Concertgebouw                                  Jochum, Eugen
1970   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Böhm, Karl
1972   Chicago Symphony                                          Solti, George
1973   London Symphony                                          Giulini, Carl Maria
1974   Hungarian PO                                                  Ferencsik, János
1974   Munich Philharmonic                                          Kempe, Rudolf
1975   New York Philharmonic                                  Boulez, Pierre
1975   Leipzig Gewandhaus                                          Masur, Kurt
1977   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Karajan, Herbert von
1979   London Symphony                                          Jochum, Eugen
1979   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Karajan, Herbert von
1980   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Bernstein, Leonard
1980   Vienna Philharmonic                                          Böhm, Karl
1982   Dresden PO                                                  Kegel, Herbert
1983   New York Philharmonic                                  Mehta, Zubin
1985   Cleveland Orchestra                                          Dohnányi, Christoph von
1986   NDR Symphony                                                  Wand, Gunter
1987   London Classical Players                                  Norrington, Roger
1987   Chicago Symphony                                          Solti, George
1988   Hanover Band                                                  Goodman, Roy
1988   Northern Sinfonia                                          Hickox, Richard
1988   Academy of Ancient Music                                  Hogwood, Christopher
1988   Philadelphia Orchestra                                  Muti, Ricardo
1989   Munich Philharmonic                                          Celidibache, Sergiu
1989   NHK Symphony                                                  Wakasugi, Hiroshi
1991   Chamber Orchestra of Europe                          Harnoncourt, Nikolaus
1991   Royal Liverpool Philharmonic                          Mackerras, Charles
1992   Staatskapelle Berlin                                          Barenboim, Daniel
1992   Orchestra of the 18th Century                          Brüggen, Frans
1992   Royal Concertgebouw                                  Haitink, Bernard
1992   Boston Philharmonic                                          Zander, Benjamin
1994   Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique          Gardiner, John
1997   Staatskapelle Dresden                                  Sinopoli, Giuseppe
1998   Zurich Tönhalle Orchester                                  Zinman, David
1999   Orchestre des Champs Elysées                          Herreweghe, Phillippe
2000   Berlin Philharmonic                                          Abbado, Claudio
2000   Berliner Staatskapelle                                          Barenboim, Daniel
2002   Stuttgart RSO                                                  Norrington, Roger
2006   London Symphony                                          Haitink, Bernard
2006   Russian National Orchestra                                  Pletnev, Mikhail
2006   Minnesota Orchestra                                          Vänskä, Osmo
2007   Anima Eterna                                                  Immerseel, Jos van
2007   Scottish Chamber Orchestra                          Mackerras, Charles
2007   Das Neue Orchester                                          Spering, Christopher
2007   American Bach Soloists                                  Thomas, Jeffrey
2007   Cleveland Orchestra                                          Welser-Most, Franz
2009   German Chamber Philharmonic Bremen          Järvi, Paavo
2009   La Chambre Philharmonique                          Krivine, Emmanuel
2010   Leipzig Gewandhaus                                          Chailly, Riccardo
           Staatskapelle Dresden                                  Blomstedt, Herbert
           Budapest PO                                                  Saccani, Rico

[ajlee]

1) Traditional
Klemperer/Philharmonia: one gritty performance, especially in the 1st mvmt (the fugal section in the development is very intense); generally good orchestral playing (and very well-balanced)

Fricsay/Berlin: he's got a good grasp of the flow; there's no exaggeration of emotions; overall Fricsay simply makes it sound "natural", which probably isn't an easy thing to do. It's not the type that'll sweep you away, but you'll subconsciously want to listen to it repeatedly.

Bohm/Vienna: again, a straightforward approach with no pretensions. The playing is very good, and the finale is extremely exciting (Bohm can often be the opposite of that), esp. in the coda, where Bohm closes the work with a surge of Furtwanglerian-like energy. It is, IMO, one of the best endings recorded.

Szell/Cleveland: Since I started liking the 9th (actually symphonic works in general) done the "Germanic" (big, dark, grand, heavy) way, I never thought this performance would be the one I go back to most often. Sure, Szell's approach doesn't sound as "big" as, say, Klemperer, but he sacrifices NONE of the music's drama, and certainly is even more exciting in certain parts (e.g. The scherzo, the fugal sections in mvts 1 and 4, and virtually the entire finale). His recapitulation in the 1st mvt is actually quite intense, despite the fact he doesn't drag out the tempo like other traditional conductors do. The Scherzo's not dragged down by heaviness, the Adagio flows naturally, and the finale sounds like there's always plenty of reserve of energy.

2) Period instrument
Do not have any that I like---in general, I believe this approach simply doesn't do justice to the music.

3). Modern, HIP-infleunced
Vanska/Minnesota: I think it's very good; he combines the athleticism of the HIP approach with a true big-band sound. However, he can sound a little "clinical" at times.

[mahler10th]

Period instrument
Do not have any that I like---in general, I believe this approach simply doesn't do justice to the music.

Aye, Beethoven would be in his element NOW with modern orchestras.  As we know, when it came to Symphonic form, Beethoven pulled out all the stops to make it exciting, dynamic and loud.
I think today he woul ask questions of period performances of his music - it would be inconceivable in his mind to perform with an orchestras which lacked the sonic punch of
todays instruments, as it was in his own era.

Still, I like Gardiners HIP Beethoven, but my favourite ninth is the one I first ever heard, Karajan, 1962.

[Gurn Blanston]

1) Traditional
Klemperer/Philharmonia: one gritty performance, especially in the 1st mvmt (the fugal section in the development is very intense); generally good orchestral playing (and very well-balanced)

Fricsay/Berlin: he's got a good grasp of the flow; there's no exaggeration of emotions; overall Fricsay simply makes it sound "natural", which probably isn't an easy thing to do. It's not the type that'll sweep you away, but you'll subconsciously want to listen to it repeatedly.

Bohm/Vienna: again, a straightforward approach with no pretensions. The playing is very good, and the finale is extremely exciting (Bohm can often be the opposite of that), esp. in the coda, where Bohm closes the work with a surge of Furtwanglerian-like energy. It is, IMO, one of the best endings recorded.

Szell/Cleveland: Since I started liking the 9th (actually symphonic works in general) done the "Germanic" (big, dark, grand, heavy) way, I never thought this performance would be the one I go back to most often. Sure, Szell's approach doesn't sound as "big" as, say, Klemperer, but he sacrifices NONE of the music's drama, and certainly is even more exciting in certain parts (e.g. The scherzo, the fugal sections in mvts 1 and 4, and virtually the entire finale). His recapitulation in the 1st mvt is actually quite intense, despite the fact he doesn't drag out the tempo like other traditional conductors do. The Scherzo's not dragged down by heaviness, the Adagio flows naturally, and the finale sounds like there's always plenty of reserve of energy.

That's a pretty good crop, probably verging on 'pick of the litter' from the 1955-70 era. I would happily rec Konswitchny (sic) to you, for an additional 50's version, and either Kletzky or Jochum/Concertgebouw for a 60's one. I think you would find that they mixed in nicely with what you already like.

2) Period instrument
Do not have any that I like---in general, I believe this approach simply doesn't do justice to the music.

No accounting for taste of course, but I totally believe you are wrong here. The music was written for these instruments, how could they not be appropriate?  However, there is no possible way that they can be made to sound like Karajan '62 for example, and if that (or Klemp or Böhm or even Fricsay) is your standard and you don't want to deviate, then of course, it will always sound wrong.

3). Modern, HIP-infleunced
Vanska/Minnesota: I think it's very good; he combines the athleticism of the HIP approach with a true big-band sound. However, he can sound a little "clinical" at times.

I like Vänskä too. I think his approach makes maximum good use of what he is working with, which is a very talented very big band. That sort of hybrid approach, using Barenreiter scores with modern instruments, seems to be the trend of the future. The earliest (1988) I've heard doing this was Hickox with the Northern Sinfonia. Seems like he was a pioneer in that regard, something else to be thankful for.