Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 26, 2009, 08:39:39 AM

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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: John on January 13, 2011, 12:57:32 AM
Aye, Beethoven would be in his element NOW with modern orchestras.  As we know, when it came to Symphonic form, Beethoven pulled out all the stops to make it exciting, dynamic and loud.
I think today he woul ask questions of period performances of his music - it would be inconceivable in his mind to perform with an orchestras which lacked the sonic punch of
todays instruments, as it was in his own era.

Still, I like Gardiners HIP Beethoven, but my favourite ninth is the one I first ever heard, Karajan, 1962.

Well, just to make you think about your own argument for a second, John, I will first say that I never for a second subscribed to any argument based on "yeah, but if he were alive today..." sort of statements. "Yeah, if pigs had freakin' wings..." ::) . But to put it plainly, Beethoven pushed the envelope of then-current orchestration when he wrote the 9th. Even today, on modern instruments, you would be hard-pressed to ever find a player who said "shit, that was too easy". Ask Jocannon about playing the oboe in performance!   In any case, you actually don't like one because you like the other so much, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Karajan 62 is a fine performance. But better worse apples oranges yada yada doesn't mean anything in this context. Me not liking Furtwängler's approach doesn't amount to anything at all, since he doesn't need me to validate him. That's all I'm saying. :)

Good to see you back, BTW.


8)
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John Copeland

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2011, 04:43:28 AM
Well, just to make you think about your own argument for a second, John, I will first say that I never for a second subscribed to any argument based on "yeah, but if he were alive today..." sort of statements. "Yeah, if pigs had freakin' wings..." ::) . But to put it plainly, Beethoven pushed the envelope of then-current orchestration when he wrote the 9th. Even today, on modern instruments, you would be hard-pressed to ever find a player who said "shit, that was too easy". Ask Jocannon about playing the oboe in performance!   In any case, you actually don't like one because you like the other so much, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Karajan 62 is a fine performance. But better worse apples oranges yada yada doesn't mean anything in this context. Me not liking Furtwängler's approach doesn't amount to anything at all, since he doesn't need me to validate him. That's all I'm saying. :)
Good to see you back, BTW.
8)

Thanks Gurn.
I do not follow what you are positing here.  I am not presenting an argument and I don't doubt that in performance anyone would turn round and say it was easy.
QuoteIn any case, you actually don't like one because you like the other so much, and there is nothing wrong with that at all.
What are you talking about?  There isn't a Beethovens 9th out there I've heard that I don't like.  I have two HIP sets (Gardiner, Norrington) which are great, but I prefer Gardiners.  And I have many 'modern' ones, of which I still stand beside the early Karajan BPO and Bohm with the VPO.
QuoteBut better worse apples oranges yada yada doesn't mean anything in this context. Me not liking Furtwängler's approach doesn't amount to anything at all, since he doesn't need me to validate him. That's all I'm saying. :)
Eh?  What is it I'm presenting that brings your unusual assessment here?  It may be we 'validate' what we like by exploring and revealing what it is we like about it - but it is also it is also necessary for us to say WHY we DON'T like something, so we can stand corrected or be guided to a more rounded conclusion if appropriate lest we appear daft for saying we 'don't like it, period.'
QuoteWell, just to make you think about your own argument for a second, John, I will first say that I never for a second subscribed to any argument based on "yeah, but if he were alive today..." sort of statements. "Yeah, if pigs had freakin' wings..." ::)
Yes Gurn, it was rather foolish of me to put Beethoven in a Time Machine to make a point which could have been better substantiated with the arguments of his day...I learned a wee lesson from you there.
Thanks Gurn, despite that I'm uncertain as to why my post riled you so.   :(

DavidRoss

Quote from: John on January 13, 2011, 12:57:32 AM
Aye, Beethoven would be in his element NOW with modern orchestras.  As we know, when it came to Symphonic form, Beethoven pulled out all the stops to make it exciting, dynamic and loud.
I think today he woul ask questions of period performances of his music - it would be inconceivable in his mind to perform with an orchestras which lacked the sonic punch of
todays instruments, as it was in his own era.
I lack that special access to the mind of Beethoven to know what he could or couldn't conceive of.  My belief is that he wrote for the instruments of his time, orchestrating accordingly.  Had he access to today's resources, he might have changed some things a bit to take advantage of them without altering the sonic balances that are every bit as important (if not more!) than sheer amplitude.  Just my two cents. Others, of course, are welcome to their own opinions and preferences, supported or not by rationalization.

Part of the reason I enjoy Brüggen's Beethoven so much is precisely because of the balance of forces that gives the winds more prominence than typically heard in big band string heavy performances.  I like the raucous rusticity much more than the homogenous blanket of sound characteristic of Karajan, for instance.  (Of course, I'm also more enthusiastic about racing a crotch rocket on twisting canyon roads than driving a plush Cadillac on an interstate highway.  Different strokes.)

But also, as I've written elsewhere, I think the enthusiastic punchiness of Brüggen's band captures the spirit of Beethoven's own conducting as described by contemporary witnesses--though that's more a justification rationalizing my preference than an explanation for a preference that's much more a matter of how I'm wired to respond physically, intuitively, and emotionally rather than how my intellect, based on whatever premises I have to start with, determines I should respond.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

John Copeland

QuoteI lack that special access to the mind of Beethoven to know what he could or couldn't conceive of.

What special access?   Read his letters.

RJR

Let's take the middle road and say that Beethoven might have preferred some modern instruments as opposed to his own period instruments, and vice-versa. Who knows? The Shadow? Perhaps.

Clever Hans


david johnson

as i revisit this thread, i must add weingartner/vpo to my short list.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Clever Hans on January 15, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
Hard to beat natural brass.

Yes indeed! :)
Quote from: david johnson on January 15, 2011, 11:06:01 PM
as i revisit this thread, i must add weingartner/vpo to my short list.
It's a good choice. Mine is that Naxos Historical release, and it is amazingly listenable.



For today. First time I've ever heard Monteux conduct anything at all, and I like what he has done so far with the Londoners.

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Now playing:
London SO \ Pierre Monteux 1962 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
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RJR

To Gurn,
Whose recording of the Ninth is on tap today, Sunday, January 16, 2011?

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: RJR on January 16, 2011, 06:53:11 AM
To Gurn,
Whose recording of the Ninth is on tap today, Sunday, January 16, 2011?

It is that Monteux. We are up to the Turkish March as I write this. The playing so far has been very good, although I have mixed feelings about how the chorus has been doing here. It may be a bit much for them! The soloists are good though, particularly Ward, the Bass/Baritone. And Monteux is building up steam as he moves it along. Overall, I would give it high marks. :)

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Now playing:
London SO \ Pierre Monteux 1962 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto - Recitativo: 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' - Allegro assai
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ajlee

I think, with the right conductors, you don't really have to sacrifice the sort of instrumental balance (i.e. More prominent winds) more commonly found in period performances. For ex., I never felt any instrumental detail was lost in Szell's studio reading, and Klemperer always stressed balance b/w strings & winds. I guess what I'm trying to say is that with "big band" you can get the best of both worlds...when able figures are on the podium.

That said, I do admire the vigor and freshness imparted by period approach. But then again, that could be matched if the good "big band" conductor so wishes (e.g. Zinman/Tonhalle).

Gurn Blanston

#291
Quote from: ajlee on January 17, 2011, 12:44:14 AM
I think, with the right conductors, you don't really have to sacrifice the sort of instrumental balance (i.e. More prominent winds) more commonly found in period performances. For ex., I never felt any instrumental detail was lost in Szell's studio reading, and Klemperer always stressed balance b/w strings & winds. I guess what I'm trying to say is that with "big band" you can get the best of both worlds...when able figures are on the podium.

That said, I do admire the vigor and freshness imparted by period approach. But then again, that could be matched if the good "big band" conductor so wishes (e.g. Zinman/Tonhalle).

All true, but a lot of 'ifs' in there. And it doesn't really address the fact that performance style changed a lot from 1824 through the entire Romantic period and 20th century. One of the main purposes of period performance is to try and shed off some of the encrustation that was stuck on there over 150 years.  You are quite right about the use of a period approach with modern instruments. Problem is, not everyone has Zinman's ability to drive that orchestra and keep it on the tracks. In any case, for those who truly enjoy the sound of period instruments, it doesn't matter who is playing and conducting, modern instruments will never match that sound. Nor should they, they have their own adherents and should be trying to please them.

"Ladies & Gentlemen; the management wishes to remind you that the next performance is an exhibition, it is not a competition. Please, no wagering".   :)

This morning:
[asin]B000TGVXB0[/asin]

(Added my own cover since apparently Amazon isn't cooperating with this one. Click to buy still works though!)
Every bit as nice as you would expect from the Philadelphians. Muti sort of surprised me here, he seemed to be doing his level best to keep to the Beethoven tempo indications. The music certainly didn't suffer for it either. Studer, Ziegler, Seiffert & Morris all performed admirably, as did the Westminster Choir. I get a certain puzzled amusement from the fact that EMI felt it necessary to point out that the following is sung in German. Mystery solved!  ::)

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ajlee

Gurn,

Ya, I guess if you're talking about the "tone", modern instruments definitely will not become period instruments. I was solely talking about the balance issue, though.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: ajlee on January 31, 2011, 07:09:38 PM
Gurn,

Ya, I guess if you're talking about the "tone", modern instruments definitely will not become period instruments. I was solely talking about the balance issue, though.

Yes, well as instruments evolved they did seem to have equivalent increases in volume, or else the numbers of them were balanced out so that good balance was achieved, so in that regard, you are probably right. Still, it depends on a thoughtful leader who will choose the right numbers of fiddlers, for example, and not mind not having the full complement if that's what it takes to let the winds show through. This may seem mind-numbingly simple, but in the event it is often not done. Thus the all-too-common string-heavy sound in a work that was written wind-heavy overall. :)

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RJR

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2010, 01:08:51 PM
RJR,
Hey, thanks for that. Not only a lot of information, but a nice consolidation of the things that I was able to discover since I first asked that question. :)

As you probably noted, earlier eras in performance style are not my favorites, however I can say confidently that the performance of the Liepzeig Gewandhaus / Konwitschny was at the top of the heap there, and most recommendable.

Do you have any other favorites that you would recommend we look into? Always pleased to discover. :)

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Now playing:
Annie Fischer - Op 028 Sonata #15 in D for Piano 2nd mvmt - Andante
Fritz Reiner. I do wish Nikisch had a chance to record the Ninth. Mahler as well. The Liszt transcription of the Ninth is also quite good.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: RJR on February 02, 2011, 06:59:28 PM
Fritz Reiner. I do wish Nikisch had a chance to record the Ninth. Mahler as well. The Liszt transcription of the Ninth is also quite good.

Ah yes, Reiner. I do enjoy that disk, the playing is powerful but precise, nice flow to the whole. I do have Neeme Jarvi and the Detroit band doing Mahler's version of the 9th. Not my thing, I'm afraid. However, Katsaris does a super job with the Liszt transcription; every time I listen to it I wonder where he keeps the extra hand between performances. :D

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The Diner

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2011, 04:29:45 AM
Ah yes, Reiner. I do enjoy that disk, the playing is powerful but precise, nice flow to the whole. I do have Neeme Jarvi and the Detroit band doing Mahler's version of the 9th. Not my thing, I'm afraid. However, Katsaris does a super job with the Liszt transcription; every time I listen to it I wonder where he keeps the extra hand between performances. :D

8)

I think Fritz loses it a bit in the last movement, but the rest is killer.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: mn dave on February 03, 2011, 04:32:29 AM
I think Fritz loses it a bit in the last movement, but the rest is killer.

Well, they DO get a bit wound up, don't they? Funny thing, when you read a lot of reviews of 9th performances, the vast majority of them rise or fall on the Ode. In Reiner's case, I think the rest of it is so good that a bit of coming apart at the seams is not so hard to overlook. If the rest of it sucked, then this would be mortal rather than venial. :)

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chung

My top 5 recordings of no. 9 right now are:

Leinsdorf, BSO (RCA)
Wand, NDRSO (RCA)
Schmidt-Isserstedt, VPO (London)
Barenboim, SB (Warner)
Blomstedt, SD (Brilliant)

Honourable mention to Munch, BSO (RCA). I haven't yet heard Fricsay, BPO but it's on the way from Amazon Marketplace.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: chung on February 04, 2011, 11:35:11 AM
My top 5 recordings of no. 9 right now are:

Leinsdorf, BSO (RCA)
Wand, NDRSO (RCA)
Schmidt-Isserstedt, VPO (London)
Barenboim, SB (Warner)
Blomstedt, SD (Brilliant)

Honourable mention to Munch, BSO (RCA). I haven't yet heard Fricsay, BPO but it's on the way from Amazon Marketplace.

Welcome, Chung.

Those are good choices, the only one I don't have is the first, and in a remarkable twist   
Quotebut it's on the way from Amazon Marketplace.
I ordered it this past Monday and expect it as soon as tomorrow. Fricsay will fit in well with that group; if that is the performance style that you like, he will be a perfect addition. :)

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Now playing:
Academy for Old Music Berlin \ René Jacobs  Rias Chamber Choir - K 620 Singspiel in 2 Acts 'The Magic Flute' pt 01 - Ouvertüre
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