Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 26, 2009, 08:39:39 AM

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Reverend Bong

Is it not true that the recording of the Furtwangler Bayreuth 1951 9th that we have all known and revered for many years turned out not to be the performance, but stitched together from elements of the dress rehearsal, and that the 2008 release on Orfeo D'Or was the actual live performance?  Is that true or did I dream it up?

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Reverend Bong on October 14, 2012, 02:45:39 AM
Is it not true that the recording of the Furtwangler Bayreuth 1951 9th that we have all known and revered for many years turned out not to be the performance, but stitched together from elements of the dress rehearsal, and that the 2008 release on Orfeo D'Or was the actual live performance?  Is that true or did I dream it up?

There are people here who specialize in that sort of information. Dancing Divertimentian among them. For me though, I haven't the vaguest idea... :-\

8)
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Gurn Blanston

Having mentioned this disk yesterday made it difficult to not pull out this AM;



Remembering back to the release of this cycle, the controversy surrounding it seems ridiculous in retrospect. It is indeed an individual vision, done at a pace that Beethoven would have loved (I believe) and splendidly performed. I've liked it since the first time I heard it and this (100th?) time through is just the same; satisfactory. :)

8)
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Que

Quote from: Reverend Bong on October 14, 2012, 02:45:39 AM
Is it not true that the recording of the Furtwangler Bayreuth 1951 9th that we have all known and revered for many years turned out not to be the performance, but stitched together from elements of the dress rehearsal, and that the 2008 release on Orfeo D'Or was the actual live performance?  Is that true or did I dream it up?

Orfeo claimed at the time of release that their issue was the first "uncut" version, implying that the EMI was a "cut" version of more that one live recording.

Q

Dancing Divertimentian

#424
Quote from: Reverend Bong on October 14, 2012, 02:45:39 AM
Is it not true that the recording of the Furtwangler Bayreuth 1951 9th that we have all known and revered for many years turned out not to be the performance, but stitched together from elements of the dress rehearsal, and that the 2008 release on Orfeo D'Or was the actual live performance?  Is that true or did I dream it up?

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:43:24 AM
There are people here who specialize in that sort of information. Dancing Divertimentian among them. For me though, I haven't the vaguest idea... :-\

Quote from: Que on October 14, 2012, 06:49:14 AM
Orfeo claimed at the time of release that their issue was the first "uncut" version, implying that the EMI was a "cut" version of more that one live recording.

Don't know any more than what I've read in Fanfare (July/August 2008, pg. 83) in a review of a CD issue of the Bayreuth 9th by the Wilhelm Furtwängler Centre of Japan.

A snippet from that review: "The history is simple: the Bavarian Radio broadcast the concert live, and then locked away the tapes of that live broadcast in their archives. EMI, separately from the Bavarian Radio engineers, recorded the rehearsals and performances live, and that is what EMI issued - without ever acknowledging that any rehearsal segments were edited in."

Apparently the advantage of the Furwängler Center of Japan release is it's in better sound than the EMI, owing to the use of the original Bavarian Radio tapes.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

mszczuj

Quote from: Reverend Bong on October 14, 2012, 02:45:39 AM
Is it not true that the recording of the Furtwangler Bayreuth 1951 9th that we have all known and revered for many years

Not we all. I really hate what Furtwangler made with Beethoven music. Nazi blasphemy.

trung224

#426
Quote from: mszczuj on October 15, 2012, 02:50:01 AM
Not we all. I really hate what Furtwangler made with Beethoven music. Nazi blasphemy.
If you don't like Furtwängler conduct Beethoven because of musical taste, it is fine . But hating performer because political reasons, I'm sorry  when I  say  impolite words, is stupid

mszczuj

#427
Quote from: trung224 on October 15, 2012, 03:03:13 AM
  If you don't like Furtwängler conduct Beethoven because of musical taste, it is fine . But hating performer because political reasons, I'm sorry  when I  say  impolite words, is stupid


I don't care what he thought I hate what he put into the music: http://youtu.be/qDZ49F1N38A


Lilas Pastia

Quote from: mszczuj on October 16, 2012, 06:19:06 AM

I don't care what he thought I hate what he put into the music: http://www.4shared.com/mp3/OA3VxVOr/freude.html

An unknown link to download, just what I like.. :P

That doesn't help understand your POV. Can't you put it into your own words?

mszczuj

Quote from: André on October 16, 2012, 05:54:09 PM
An unknown link to download, just what I like.. :P

That doesn't help understand your POV. Can't you put it into your own words?

I'm sorry. We had used 4shared last year in "Name that piece! The game" thread and I remembered it as useful. And there was no need to download the file for the listening. Now I changed it to youtube: http://youtu.be/qDZ49F1N38A

I know only two Furtwängler's recordings of  the 9th  - of 1942 and of 1954. Both are for me extremly uninteresting as Furtwängler was not building music around the dialogue of phrases (which is for me the core of the Classical Era aproach to the music), he was trying instead to achieve extramal intensity of every single sound. There is nothing of blasphemy in this approach however, I find it just dull - you don't need Beethoven to play like this, you can play scales - they will be mystical as well.) But that of 1942 is for me like a horror - this is the joy which is the privilege of  the power and the cruelty.

Lilas Pastia

Extremely interesting post, and very well written. If only I could connect your thought with their subject (the Furtwängler LvB 9, I gather). When I click on the link I can't find anything in it. But now that you mention it's Furt's 1942 LvB 9th I suppose that a youtube search will give me the desired clue. As a matter of fact his Bayreuth 9th has always been a mystery wonder for me. I've never found anything really special in it. But then again, I'm a perseverent fellow. Maybe some day it will dawn on me.

Que

Quote from: André on October 20, 2012, 06:45:57 PM
As a matter of fact his Bayreuth 9th has always been a mystery wonder for me. I've never found anything really special in it. But then again, I'm a perseverent fellow. Maybe some day it will dawn on me.

Considering myself a Furtwägler fan, I honestly think the Bayreuth 9th will be never sound to you other than rather disjointed, relatively uninsprired and heavily over-hyped. 8)

Q

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Que on October 21, 2012, 01:18:50 AM
Considering myself a Furtwängler fan, I honestly think the Bayreuth 9th will be never sound to you other than rather disjointed, relatively uninspired and heavily over-hyped. 8)

Q

A frank admission. :)   FWIW, I have both of those recordings and haven't listened to either of them in years. I know some people consider them the greatest ever, but...  :-\

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Gurn Blanston

This morning's listening;



My first listen to this one, actually. We just made it to the end of the scherzo and things are going nicely so far.... ;)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

mszczuj

#434
Quote from: André on October 20, 2012, 06:45:57 PM
Extremely interesting post, and very well written. If only I could connect your thought with their subject (the Furtwängler LvB 9, I gather). When I click on the link I can't find anything in it. But now that you mention it's Furt's 1942 LvB 9th I suppose that a youtube search will give me the desired clue. As a matter of fact his Bayreuth 9th has always been a mystery wonder for me. I've never found anything really special in it. But then again, I'm a perseverent fellow. Maybe some day it will dawn on me.

But there is something in this link - about 1s of music with choral "Freude".

In fact my remark was not only about Furtwängler but about me as well. I haven't even heard  his Bayreuth performance because he insult me personally in 1942. (And I had considered the 9th of 1954 the worst ever one before I heard that of 1942.)

trung224

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 03:03:14 AM
A frank admission. :)   FWIW, I have both of those recordings and haven't listened to either of them in years. I know some people consider them the greatest ever, but...  :-\

8)
Everyone has his own taste. I think the Furtwängler's Beethoven 9 accounts was consider by numbers of people as the best because they are very unique, and represent the most extreme interpretation, the 1942 "ode to hell" is the most daemonic interpretation, in this term it outclasses both Toscanini's and Karajan's account. And the 1954 performance is a most angelic, and heaven performance. Not everyone agree with that interpretation but that kind of performance can not be duplicate and  I doubt anyone ,even Beethoven himself, can  imagine this piece can be performed with so much emotion and intensity.
   

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: trung224 on October 21, 2012, 05:21:10 AM
   Everyone has his own taste. I think the Furtwängler's Beethoven 9 accounts was consider by numbers of people as the best because they are very unique, and represent the most extreme interpretation, the 1942 "ode to hell" is the most daemonic interpretation, in this term it outclasses both Toscanini's and Karajan's account. And the 1954 performance is a most angelic, and heaven performance. Not everyone agree with that interpretation but that kind of performance can not be duplicate and  I doubt anyone ,even Beethoven himself, can  imagine this piece can be performed with so much emotion and intensity.
   

That's fine with me, everyone in the whole world can love it to death, but don't mean I would change my mind over it. I don't like extremes in anything, including music. To me, what you describe isn't Beethoven's 9th, it's Furtwängler's 9th.  :)

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mszczuj

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 07:11:05 AM
That's fine with me, everyone in the whole world can love it to death, but don't mean I would change my mind over it. I don't like extremes in anything, including music. To me, what you describe isn't Beethoven's 9th, it's Furtwängler's 9th.  :)

Oh, it is too far, they do it together. But Furtwängler was the boss.

trung224

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 07:11:05 AM
That's fine with me, everyone in the whole world can love it to death, but don't mean I would change my mind over it. I don't like extremes in anything, including music. To me, what you describe isn't Beethoven's 9th, it's Furtwängler's 9th.  :)

8)
Blanston, our taste is so different :) But music needs diversity. With me, music like a girl. If they are normal, that is fine. But if she make up (or recreate music) to become more beautiful, attractive I think that is better.  ;D

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: trung224 on October 21, 2012, 08:17:07 AM
   Blanston, our taste is so different :) But music needs diversity. With me, music like a girl. If they are normal, that is fine. But if she make up (or recreate music) to become more beautiful, attractive I think that is better.  ;D

Well, this is a good thing. As I say, I certainly don't want anyone to think that just because something doesn't appeal to me, I think it shouldn't appeal to them too. But see, girls are more attractive underneath the makeup...   0:)

8)
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)