Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 26, 2009, 08:39:39 AM

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Gurn Blanston

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Lake Swan

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2012, 09:10:32 AM
I know. So it goes. :-

8)

I'm listening to that recording. Pretty sweet so far. STILL my favorite symphony of all time.

mszczuj

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2012, 08:52:35 AM
Are those LP's like original pressings from ~1960? Or later on reissues? I know nothing about LP's, but always curious. :)

GDR Eterna records from 70s (probably, black label on records) - Nos. 6,7,2 and 9.
GDR Eterna records from 80s (probably, blue label on records) - Nos. 3,4,5.
Polish Muza records from 70s - Nos. 4, 8, 1 and 9.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: mszczuj on December 30, 2012, 09:31:51 AM
GDR Eterna records from 70s (probably, black label on records) - Nos. 6,7,2 and 9.
GDR Eterna records from 80s (probably, blue label on records) - Nos. 3,4,5.
Polish Muza records from 70s - Nos. 4, 8, 1 and 9.

Ah. Same performance of the 9th though?

Leipzig Gewandhaus / Konwitschny, Franz   --- Rundfunkchor Leipzig / Knothel, Dietrich   
Wenglor, Ingeborg   Zollenkopf, Ursula   Rotzsch, Hans-Joachim   Adam, Theo

Interesting set makeup. Blessed with 2 9ths though, you can't beat that!   0:)

8)
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mszczuj

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2012, 09:38:36 AM
Ah. Same performance of the 9th though?

Leipzig Gewandhaus / Konwitschny, Franz   --- Rundfunkchor Leipzig / Knothel, Dietrich   
Wenglor, Ingeborg   Zollenkopf, Ursula   Rotzsch, Hans-Joachim   Adam, Theo

Yes, the same.

kishnevi

The Tennstedt/LPO recording landed today, and therefore to see 2012 off in proper style, I'm listening to it now.   If the neighbors are noisy enough with their fireworks, I may play Bruggen's recording (from the new set, the live Rotterdam performances in 2011) to usher in 2013 in proper style.

One thing I'm noticing in this recording is the drums.  They seem to be unusually prominent, especially in the first and fourth movement.  I've noticed them on other recordings, but I don't remember them being that vividly forward in the musicmaking.....Or am simply picking something my ears didn't pay attention to the several hundred times I've heard the Ninth before now?


Excuse me,  Rene Pape is calling the proceedings to order....

kishnevi

#506
Final rating for the Tennstedt:  A.  Points taken away for the too-prominent timpani, which may have been the result of the engineering set up, I suppose.

Went on the Bruggen.  Here it was the woodwinds that were unexpectedly prominent, especially in the opening bars;  everything went well until the baritone entered for his recitative--he sounded unsure of his notes after a minute, and the tenor was straining too much in his solo.  (Yes, I know most tenors strain a bit in that passage, but this time he almost seemed to have lost the high notes.)  Final result, because of the less than ideal singing,  A-

ETA: perhaps Bruggen's singers suffered because I heard them almost directly after Pape and Rolfe-Johnson,  but even taking that into account,  I still have to call them substandard.

DavidA

I've got to know the ninth symphony as a lad through Ansamet's performance which came out in Mono Decca budget. It had a fine group of soloists including Joan Sutherland. The performance wasn't bad. Not earthshaking but very enjoyable in a straightforward way.
However I really discovered how tremendous this symphony was when I listened to Karajan 77 for the first time.
I have this recording on CD plus the Vienna Philharmonic one with Bernstein.
I have also got Karajan 62 as part of a complete set. Is really impossible to choose between them but I think the later one just has it on points.
I also have two Klemperer complete sets which have performances of Beethoven ninth from 1950s. Say what you will Klemperer may be out of fashion but these are almighty performances.
I also have Roger Norrington which is a bit disappointing. He simply doesn't Generate the awe that this symphony takes but nevertheless hearing him on original instruments is interesting.
I have just invested in the high-octane Chailly set which I have heard only part of the ninth. The recording is incredible.
And not to forget I also have the RCA Toscanini sets of the symphonies will simply tremendous ninth. The recording is difficult to live with but the performance is beyond price.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 31, 2012, 08:59:07 PM
Final rating for the Tennstedt:  A.  Points taken away for the too-prominent timpani, which may have been the result of the engineering set up, I suppose.

Went on the Bruggen.  Here it was the woodwinds that were unexpectedly prominent, especially in the opening bars;  everything went well until the baritone entered for his recitative--he sounded unsure of his notes after a minute, and the tenor was straining too much in his solo.  (Yes, I know most tenors strain a bit in that passage, but this time he almost seemed to have lost the high notes.)  Final result, because of the less than ideal singing,  A-

ETA: perhaps Bruggen's singers suffered because I heard them almost directly after Pape and Rolfe-Johnson,  but even taking that into account,  I still have to call them substandard.

Jeffrey,
Thanks for the feed back on that disk. I have heard a whole range of prominence for timpani, some of it based on the conductor's preference, maybe some on the timpanist's personal sense of style and what 'forte' means, and some of it as a result of the recording engineers and/or sound editors in post-production. I think at that point one will have to measure against ones own aesthetics. I like it on the more prominent side, which is to say, I don't like versions where they are distant and muffled. Somewhere I suppose there is a 'just right'. :)

Quote from: DavidA on January 01, 2013, 08:20:20 AM
I've got to know the ninth symphony as a lad through Ansamet's performance which came out in Mono Decca budget. It had a fine group of soloists including Joan Sutherland. The performance wasn't bad. Not earthshaking but very enjoyable in a straightforward way.
However I really discovered how tremendous this symphony was when I listened to Karajan 77 for the first time.
I have this recording on CD plus the Vienna Philharmonic one with Bernstein.
I have also got Karajan 62 as part of a complete set. Is really impossible to choose between them but I think the later one just has it on points.
I also have two Klemperer complete sets which have performances of Beethoven ninth from 1950s. Say what you will Klemperer may be out of fashion but these are almighty performances.
I also have Roger Norrington which is a bit disappointing. He simply doesn't Generate the awe that this symphony takes but nevertheless hearing him on original instruments is interesting.
I have just invested in the high-octane Chailly set which I have heard only part of the ninth. The recording is incredible.
And not to forget I also have the RCA Toscanini sets of the symphonies will simply tremendous ninth. The recording is difficult to live with but the performance is beyond price.

David
You have a pretty good range of performances there. I have a 1952 Toscanini that is quite fine, I think he was an early pioneer towards what became the later standard of performance. Hats off to him for that. I haven't heard his earlier recordings, I understand the performances may be finer even, but the sound is even worse. Pity that, but I am not an historical recording nut who can just overlook that stuff. Of the Karajan's, I like the 62 better than the 77, but I also have the 55 with the Philharmonia that I think can challenge either of the others. It has more youthful zest imparted to the performers, I suppose. 

I predict you will like the Chailly in its entirety. It certainly is high-energy, and also eloquent when it should be. Nice combination. :)

8)
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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2012, 07:00:30 AM
This week I decided to continue with that little cluster of great performances that ranges from '58 to '63.

Just to savor the goodness of this group, I will spend the 10 weeks it takes to listen to all of them.

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Cluytens, André
1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc
1958   Boston SO   Munch, Charles
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande   Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus   Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony   Reiner, Fritz

1961   Royal Philharmonic   Leibowitz, Rene
1962   Berlin Philharmonic   Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony   Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra   Szell, George


So carrying on with this delightful project this week, we move on to a version that was first brought to my attention by friend Holden a couple of years back, and which took my a while to locate. Worth the while though;



You would not suppose from either the recorded sound or the performance style that this little gem goes all the way back to 1961! I think it points to the flux in performance thoughts that was plaguing conductors and music directors back then. The age was clearly changing, and tastes along with it. I know little to nothing about Leibowitz and who his influences are, but he sounds to me like a philosophical disciple of Toscanini, only not quite as adamant, so to say. He is able to explore the slow and passionate side as well as the bigger, faster, harder (yes, Olympian) side of the music. Definitely a must-have for me!

8)
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DavidA

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 06:59:11 AM
Jeffrey,
Thanks for the feed back on that disk. I have heard a whole range of prominence for timpani, some of it based on the conductor's preference, maybe some on the timpanist's personal sense of style and what 'forte' means, and some of it as a result of the recording engineers and/or sound editors in post-production. I think at that point one will have to measure against ones own aesthetics. I like it on the more prominent side, which is to say, I don't like versions where they are distant and muffled. Somewhere I suppose there is a 'just right'. :)

David
You have a pretty good range of performances there. I have a 1952 Toscanini that is quite fine, I think he was an early pioneer towards what became the later standard of performance. Hats off to him for that. I haven't heard his earlier recordings, I understand the performances may be finer even, but the sound is even worse. Pity that, but I am not an historical recording nut who can just overlook that stuff. Of the Karajan's, I like the 62 better than the 77, but I also have the 55 with the Philharmonia that I think can challenge either of the others. It has more youthful zest imparted to the performers, I suppose. 

I predict you will like the Chailly in its entirety. It certainly is high-energy, and also eloquent when it should be. Nice combination. :)

8)

It was always a tragedy that Toscanini chose to record in sound which was pretty ropey even for the day. The acoustic studio 8H was so dry that it tended to take the life out of his performances. Towards the end of his life he also tended to be more hard-driving than he was earlier. Of course the recordings tended to exaggerate the aggression. I believe there's some recordings of him with the BBC Symphony Orchestra which give more of an idea of what he was like in his pomp.
If you haven't heard one of the Klemperer recordings, especially live, then do so if you can. It certainly old-fashioned and somewhat slow but there is a tremendous conviction about them. Having listened to them and lived with them I now know why critics praised Klemperer's Beethoven, something I couldn't make out as a younger man. The struggle towards joy in the ninth is awesome!
I am still trying to come to terms with the Chailly.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: DavidA on January 08, 2013, 10:03:23 PM
It was always a tragedy that Toscanini chose to record in sound which was pretty ropey even for the day. The acoustic studio 8H was so dry that it tended to take the life out of his performances. Towards the end of his life he also tended to be more hard-driving than he was earlier. Of course the recordings tended to exaggerate the aggression. I believe there's some recordings of him with the BBC Symphony Orchestra which give more of an idea of what he was like in his pomp.
If you haven't heard one of the Klemperer recordings, especially live, then do so if you can. It certainly old-fashioned and somewhat slow but there is a tremendous conviction about them. Having listened to them and lived with them I now know why critics praised Klemperer's Beethoven, something I couldn't make out as a younger man. The struggle towards joy in the ninth is awesome!
I am still trying to come to terms with the Chailly.

Hey, David,
I've got a couple of Klemps, actually.

[asin]B00002MXTT[/asin]

[asin]B000G5SIOO[/asin]

These 2 anyway. Not sure what it is exactly that doesn't appeal to me. It may well be precisely the same thing that does appeal to you, but which is what turns me off to Furtwängler too. I don't care a lot for big, emotional readings. Funny you mention Toscanini here, because there is a quote from him that sums my feelings up nicely. It's true, he was talking about Eroica and not The Ninth;

"To some it is about Napoleon; to some it is Alexander the Great; to some it is philosophical struggle. To me it is simply Allegro con brio."  0:)

I know, that doesn't sound like I have the taste for the passion in the music, but then, I tend more towards the passion being in me instead of the music itself.  Just a Classical kind of guy.... :)

8)
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kishnevi

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2013, 11:03:31 AM
Hey, David,
I've got a couple of Klemps, actually.

[asin]B00002MXTT[/asin]

[asin]B000G5SIOO[/asin]

These 2 anyway. Not sure what it is exactly that doesn't appeal to me. It may well be precisely the same thing that does appeal to you, but which is what turns me off to Furtwängler too. I don't care a lot for big, emotional readings. Funny you mention Toscanini here, because there is a quote from him that sums my feelings up nicely. It's true, he was talking about Eroica and not The Ninth;

"To some it is about Napoleon; to some it is Alexander the Great; to some it is philosophical struggle. To me it is simply Allegro con brio."  0:)

I know, that doesn't sound like I have the taste for the passion in the music, but then, I tend more towards the passion being in me instead of the music itself.  Just a Classical kind of guy.... :)

8)

To phrase it another (not necessarily better) way, if the music doesn't give rise to an emotional response in you, the listener, then it doesn't matter whether the music is about Napoleon, Alexander, or the composer not having made the beast with two backs since week before last.....

DavidA

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2013, 11:03:31 AM
Hey, David,
I've got a couple of Klemps, actually.

[asin]B00002MXTT[/asin]

[asin]B000G5SIOO[/asin]

These 2 anyway. Not sure what it is exactly that doesn't appeal to me. It may well be precisely the same thing that does appeal to you, but which is what turns me off to Furtwängler too. I don't care a lot for big, emotional readings. Funny you mention Toscanini here, because there is a quote from him that sums my feelings up nicely. It's true, he was talking about Eroica and not The Ninth;

"To some it is about Napoleon; to some it is Alexander the Great; to some it is philosophical struggle. To me it is simply Allegro con brio."  0:)

I know, that doesn't sound like I have the taste for the passion in the music, but then, I tend more towards the passion being in me instead of the music itself.  Just a Classical kind of guy.... :)

8)

The thing that appeals to me about the Klemperer is the huge dramatic buildup. There is a tremendous logic and struggle in his performances that makes the final outpost of joy a logical conclusion. I know he can be too slow for some people and the scherzo  so does lumber a bit. But there is a build up to the thing which finds the end of it shattering.
I can't quite understand you talking about not going for emotional performances as I would say that Klemperer is one of those who most of all wgo allowing the emotion and passion in the music itself to emerge naturally. In his way Klemperer was highly classical in that sense.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2012, 07:00:30 AM
This week I decided to continue with that little cluster of great performances that ranges from '58 to '63. 1

Just to savor the goodness of this group, I will spend the 10 weeks it takes to listen to all of them.

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Cluytens, André
1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc
1958   Boston SO   Munch, Charles
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande   Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus   Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony   Reiner, Fritz
1961   Royal Philharmonic   Leibowitz, Rene
1962   Berlin Philharmonic   Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony   Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra   Szell, George



Well, the list is getting shorter, but the performances are as good as ever. This week's Boston/Munch comes from a time when they were the preeminent orchestra in North America. And you can tell upon listening to this disk. Ensemble is superb, tempi are very well judged, the Living Stereo sound quality is all you could hope; in short, having soloists like Leontyne Price and Maureen Forrester is just icing on the cake. :)

8)
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DavidA

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2013, 05:40:56 AM


Well, the list is getting shorter, but the performances are as good as ever. This week's Boston/Munch comes from a time when they were the preeminent orchestra in North America. And you can tell upon listening to this disk. Ensemble is superb, tempi are very well judged, the Living Stereo sound quality is all you could hope; in short, having soloists like Leontyne Price and Maureen Forrester is just icing on the cake. :)

8)

This performance was celebrated on vinyl as it had no side break in the slow movement.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: DavidA on January 13, 2013, 11:54:26 AM
This performance was celebrated on vinyl as it had no side break in the slow movement.

Was that a first? It was released in '59 so it didn't beat Fricsay to the gate for 'first stereo', but I almost have to think that un unbroken movement 'first'  is as cool! :)

8)
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DavidA

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2013, 12:28:27 PM
Was that a first? It was released in '59 so it didn't beat Fricsay to the gate for 'first stereo', but I almost have to think that un unbroken movement 'first'  is as cool! :)

8)

Yes it was a first. It came out on an RCA budget label. The great feature was they had managed to get the first three movements all on to one side of the LP so there was no break in the slow movement as there was almost single disc LPs of the ninth.

Leo K.



Of course my favored oldy-but-goody approach, which is more spacious and grand-scale than the recent period instrument recordings or their likes (Harnoncourt, Gardiner, Zinman, Abbado's recent Berlin cycle for DG, Rattle, etc). If you are on a quest of finding a shockingly fresh approach to the 9th, look somewhere else. If you are looking for a powerful yet heartfelt performance of 9th with top-notch male soloists and a choir, you will be VERY happy with this recording. The live recording is clear yet warm with plenty of ambience. is superb. This is a performance full of passion and affection. It also has a virtue many super-charged recordings miss - the optimistic warmth (=Abbado's specialty). This aspect is less highlighted in his Berlin recording for Sony. The balance between different instruments is sometimes ideal and sometimes interesting. Strings are lush and bright. Woodwinds are warm but accentuated when required. The timpani, a vital instrument in this symphony, is punchy but never obtrusive. Choir is magnificent AND well-recorded, which is a rare case. Male soloists are super. And yes, it's also a fairly traditional, old elementally clear, with a speedy, delightful Trio. The slow movement has a wonderfully heartfelt melos, reaching its peak in the splendid brass fanfares, where Abbado slows down just a tad for empahasis. The finale is offered on a big scale. The tenor takes a little getting used to, but the other soloists are splendid. Hermann Prey sings his opening solo elegantly, with just the occasional strain on a low note. The sonic perspective on his solo alters when the chorus comes in, the only audio blemish I can cite in this recording. The chorus experience recording Bernstein live in Vienna by this time, and the lessons seem to have been applied to this recording. The dynamic range of the recording is extremely wide. You have to play the CD at a loud volume for the complete sonic picture to come through. Once you do this, you will be rewarded with one of the most lucid presentations of the Ninth I ever have heard. In the first movement, Abbado subtly alters the tempo to reflect the dramatic essence of each of the episodes. His Scherzo is beautifully played and beloved, old recording from my past. These days I definitely prefer the traditional, ultra-romantic, Furtwangler-mystical Beethoven 9ths, but once in awhile I still love to listen to the old Norrington/LPC and the Hogwood version too. Sometime I want to hear more of the other HIPs I haven't heard, like the Bruggen. This CD with the Vienna Philharmonic takes over 72 minutes, which seems to me a judicious pace which allows for a lot of detail to come through. The 1986 sound engineering is superb, especially for a live recording. DG had had considerable It's been years since I heard the Abbado/VPO, but when I was in High School, this and the Norrington were my main recordings. I especially remember how the Abbado/VPO was always a profound listening experience, each time I played it. I would listen to the Abbado on cassette (in 1988 or so) in the mornings before school, and late into the night.

Gurn Blanston

So, you like it then? :D

I have 2 different versions with Abbado and the Berliners, always meant to pick this one up too, but never got to it. Now you've given me some impetus. Thanks for the interesting post, Leo. :)

8)
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