Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

[DavidRoss]

I bought the Rattle's Beethoven cycle recently, and I like it quite a bit, but not much.

Huh? Is there a typo here, or am I missing something?

Yes, that's the effect I was mentioning earlier; it's Rattle-icious! Somewhere in this list there is a thread about Rattle which I was reading just recently. It was half and half, so one can't tell whether the sun actually does shine out of his ass or whether that is merely the cumulative effect of the many, tiny explosions caused by his duds hitting ground.   I don't personally have an opinion yet, since my Rattle collection grew to 1 yesterday with the arrival of this 9th. I have heard some on radio though and was duly left undecided. Not like when I first heard Kleiber, for example.   

I still think Rattie's one of the more overrated conductors these days, but (thanks largely to M's advocacy) I grudgingly came to respect his CBSO Sibelius and lately I'm coming around to his Mahler, too. Neither would be first choices for me, but I think he's a better grasp of these two symphonists than many more frequently recommended conductors.

Admittedly, the cover photo of that LvB 9 activates ALL of my unfavorable prejudices re. Sir Simon.     It's a challenge to set them aside and hear with open ears.

[jlaurson]

Huh? Is there a typo here, or am I missing something?
I still think Rattie's one of the more overrated conductors these days, but (thanks largely to M's advocacy) I grudgingly came to respect his CBSO Sibelius and lately I'm coming around to his Mahler, too. Neither would be first choices for me, but I think he's a better grasp of these two symphonists than many more frequently recommended conductors.

Admittedly, the cover photo of that LvB 9 activates ALL of my unfavorable prejudices re. Sir Simon.     It's a challenge to set them aside and hear with open ears.

I appreciated few of his recordings (I happily embracd his Bruckner 7 and still do), but I did grow to really appreciate him in live performance with the razor sharp Berliners. Not always good, but when they were on, they had a way that was very impressive and cut to the bone. Sort of what the Bolshoi is to dancing. So he traded actual or imagined Berliner "sound" (certainly the homogenized Karajan ideal) away for something stenciled with a laser, but that's got to be heard to be believed, too. The recordings went from good to worse; loveless Haydn and Musorgsky and Orff... and eventually I refused them for free. Until I happened, upon strong external urging, on his Brahms cycle. Holy cow. Yes, different... yes an 'alternative reading', but it knocks your socks off.

So I'm not in one camp or another about him. Wouldn't mind if he moved further south, after his Berlin stint, as first rumors postulate. (Baseless, but informed speculation, that is.)

[stateworker]

Forgive the impatience. I haven't gone through every page of this thread, which may already have covered the following but if so- it deserves the increased exposure!
The Munch recordings of the 9th are absent from the old fogeys traditional list. There is a broadcast recording of the Boston folks doing a smash and grab of the universe:

Beethoven Symphony no. 9

Leontyne Price, soprano ; Maureen Forrester, contralto 

David Poleri, tenor ; Giorgio Tozzi, baritone
New England Conservatory Chorus

Boston Symphony Orchestra
Charles Munch, conductor

Recorded Symphony Hall, Boston, MA 
20 December 1958

This one keeps me riveted, every time. Something about it. I imprinted on the early 1960's Berliner cycle with von Karajan, and both of Furtwangler's 1942 ninths (you just can't do without the March or the April ones). This surpasses them.

[kishnevi]

I remember rather liking Rattle's LvB9, although it's been a while since I've played it, and I don't have any other of his Beethoven recordings.

I do think Rattle has had some  very good Mahler and Shostakovich recordings, but he also produced the most plodding and soporific Mahler 3 I've ever heard.    He also seems good in Britten, and I like his recording of Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges. His Stravinsky is also first rate, although I confess to being underwhelmed by that Brahms set Jens referred to.   So he obviously the kind who can produce really good performances and really bad performances, and good luck deciding beforehand which it's going to be.  (Have not heard any of his Sibelius.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Forgive the impatience. I haven't gone through every page of this thread, which may already have covered the following but if so- it deserves the increased exposure!
The Munch recordings of the 9th are absent from the old fogeys traditional list. There is a broadcast recording of the Boston folks doing a smash and grab of the universe:

Beethoven Symphony no. 9

Leontyne Price, soprano ; Maureen Forrester, contralto 

David Poleri, tenor ; Giorgio Tozzi, baritone
New England Conservatory Chorus

Boston Symphony Orchestra
Charles Munch, conductor

Recorded Symphony Hall, Boston, MA 
20 December 1958

This one keeps me riveted, every time. Something about it. I imprinted on the early 1960's Berliner cycle with von Karajan, and both of Furtwangler's 1942 ninths (you just can't do without the March or the April ones). This surpasses them.

Thanks for joining us. That list that you reference is from a couple of years ago, and unfortunately I haven't gone back and updated it. At that time I didn't have a Munch, although that has since been remedied. It went through the listening process only a few weeks ago, FWIW. Also, if you check back a few (maybe quite a few) pages, there is a link there for a recording of the dress rehearsal for this Living Stereo disk which is said to contain a much more unbuttoned kick-butt version. I didn't heard it, but the poster is a long time member with a respectable taste, so I reckon it probably is.

[Leo K.]

I appreciated few of his recordings (I happily embracd his Bruckner 7 and still do), but I did grow to really appreciate him in live performance with the razor sharp Berliners. Not always good, but when they were on, they had a way that was very impressive and cut to the bone. Sort of what the Bolshoi is to dancing. So he traded actual or imagined Berliner "sound" (certainly the homogenized Karajan ideal) away for something stenciled with a laser, but that's got to be heard to be believed, too. The recordings went from good to worse; loveless Haydn and Musorgsky and Orff... and eventually I refused them for free. Until I happened, upon strong external urging, on his Brahms cycle. Holy cow. Yes, different... yes an 'alternative reading', but it knocks your socks off.

So I'm not in one camp or another about him. Wouldn't mind if he moved further south, after his Berlin stint, as first rumors postulate. (Baseless, but informed speculation, that is.)

I enjoyed reading your assessment of Rattle in Berlin, I agree and also vouch for his Brahms, wow indeed!

[stateworker]

Thanks for having me. that

...dress rehearsal for this Living Stereo disk which is said to contain a much more unbuttoned kick-butt version. ...

is the one. A wonderful performance to me, a Desert Island necessity among the sea of contenders.

G

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for having me. that
is the one. A wonderful performance to me, a Desert Island necessity among the sea of contenders.

G

Well, dadgummit, I guess I'm just going to have to go download it!    You're right, there is most certainly a sea of contenders! Doubtless the reason that I strictly avoided calling this the 'Best Beethoven 9 Thread'!  Maybe one day I will hear the version deserving of the title..... nah! 

[Gurn Blanston]

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc
1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Cluytens, André
1958   Boston SO   Munch, Charles
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande   Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus   Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony   Reiner, Fritz
1961   Royal Philharmonic   Leibowitz, Rene
1962   Berlin Philharmonic   Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony   Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra   Szell, George



I saved the 2 versions that I designated as the beginning and the end of this period for last, not least because they are 2 of my favorites! Cleveland /Szell is a powerhouse from the playing to the singing. Excellent soloists and chorus, and Szell ultimately does a superb job keeping everyone on track. Just comparing between versions by the same orchestra (likely different players though), Maazel's version from the early 1980's sounds a little more relaxed and it actually seems to benefit the performance overall. But that's nitpicking, this recording is in the series that Sony calls "Essential Classics". I agree with that label for once!   

[jlaurson]

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc

I saved the 2 versions that I designated as the beginning and the end of this period for last, not least because they are 2 of my favorites!

Really are saving the best for last. Am relieved and almost disappointed to hear you already know it... because I was looking forward to your sense of miraculous discovery, if and when you finally hit that Fricsay recording. 

[Opus106]

Really are saving the best for last. Am relieved and almost disappointed to hear you already know it... because I was looking forward to your sense of miraculous discovery, if and when you finally hit that Fricsay recording. 

Well, he actually cheated.

[jlaurson]

Well, he actually cheated.

I am shocked. Shocked.

[Sergeant Rock]

I saved the 2 versions that I designated as the beginning and the end of this period for last, not least because they are 2 of my favorites! Cleveland /Szell is a powerhouse from the playing to the singing. Excellent soloists and chorus, and Szell ultimately does a superb job keeping everyone on track. Just comparing between versions by the same orchestra (likely different players though), Maazel's version from the early 1980's sounds a little more relaxed and it actually seems to benefit the performance overall. But that's nitpicking, this recording is in the series that Sony calls "Essential Classics". I agree with that label for once!   

My hero...Szell and Gurn 

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

I still think Rattie's one of the more overrated conductors these days

Most wrongfully denigrated conductors, yes.  Most overrated, no.

In fact, I think he is underrated.  I'm pro Rattle. 

That's OK.  You can hate him, and think he's an overrated buffoon.  I'll still always feel differently about Rattle.  He is deserving of any praise he gets, and more.

[jlaurson]

Most wrongfully denigrated conductors, yes.  Most overrated, no.

I think the two are related... and he may be both -- depending on where and who you ask.

Also: Rattle-live makes a big difference to just Rattle-recorded.

[Opus106]

I prefer to rate critics, paid and armchair, actually. I'm as qualified a curmudgeon as any of them. But all that's for another thread which, hopefully, won't be started.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, he actually cheated.

Well, it's true     I listen to Fricsay out of turn about 4 times a year. It is simply one of my favorites.

I am shocked. Shocked.

  I love that movie, just saw it yesterday!  Now, where are my winnings? 

My hero...Szell and Gurn 

Sarge

Yeah, Sarge, no argument possible. This one is easily in my Top 10!

[Gurn Blanston]

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc
1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Cluytens, André
1958   Boston SO   Munch, Charles
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande   Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus   Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony   Reiner, Fritz
1961   Royal Philharmonic   Leibowitz, Rene
1962   Berlin Philharmonic   Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony   Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra   Szell, George




Well, I am down to the final entry in this brief reminiscence of the wonderful transition period of 1958 to 1963. Whatever they were putting in the water back then must have really tipped the scales towards a more interesting performance practice for The Ninth.

This performance, as you all know, was the first stereo recording ever released of The Ninth. But that isn't what puts it over the top, rather, it is the sheer quality of the playing and singing. Being in stereo isn't what makes the recording; the recording deserved that sort of treatment and engineering. I know that everyone has their own favorite from the list above, probably Karajan, maybe Szell or Reiner or Munch (or Leibowitz, Holden ).  But this is mine, I was delighted to discover it, not on a recommendation but by serendipity. So Jens' statement from last week held true for me at one time, and I'm sad that it's a pity it can only happen once. 

Now, back to the music....

[mc ukrneal]

1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Fricsay, Ferenc
1958   Berlin Philharmonic   Cluytens, André
1958   Boston SO   Munch, Charles
1959   Orchestre Suisse-Romande   Ansermet, Ernest
1960   Leipzig Gewandhaus   Konwitschny, Franz
1961   Chicago Symphony   Reiner, Fritz
1961   Royal Philharmonic   Leibowitz, Rene
1962   Berlin Philharmonic   Karajan, Herbert von
1962   London Symphony   Monteux, Pierre
1963   Cleveland Orchestra   Szell, George




Well, I am down to the final entry in this brief reminiscence of the wonderful transition period of 1958 to 1963. Whatever they were putting in the water back then must have really tipped the scales towards a more interesting performance practice for The Ninth.

This performance, as you all know, was the first stereo recording ever released of The Ninth. But that isn't what puts it over the top, rather, it is the sheer quality of the playing and singing. Being in stereo isn't what makes the recording; the recording deserved that sort of treatment and engineering. I know that everyone has their own favorite from the list above, probably Karajan, maybe Szell or Reiner or Munch (or Leibowitz, Holden ).  But this is mine, I was delighted to discover it, not on a recommendation but by serendipity. So Jens' statement from last week held true for me at one time, and I'm sad that it's a pity it can only happen once. 

Now, back to the music....

I listen to this symphony very rarely, but if I ever get another version (I have two, one of which I NEVER listen to), this would be the one I get. (by rarely, I mean seldom - last time I put it on was probably 3-4 years ago)

[Gurn Blanston]

I listen to this symphony very rarely, but if I ever get another version (I have two, one of which I NEVER listen to), this would be the one I get. (by rarely, I mean seldom - last time I put it on was probably 3-4 years ago)

Well, one day it will fit you perfectly, and then you will be ready for it. This would be a good choice, no doubt. What's your other good one? Gardiner?