Recordings that you enjoy: Beethoven Symphony #9

[Pat B]

Well, I have reached a momentous point in my collection; I have 99 versions (counting a couple on DVD and the Liszt transcription). I want #100 to be something special, not an historic thing in bad sound, but something since the stereo era began anyway. So I am soliciting suggestions. Here is where I stand right now;

Are you avoiding Bernstein '89? I know it has its detractors, but I think it's great.

[Gurn Blanston]

Are you avoiding Bernstein '89? I know it has its detractors, but I think it's great.

Truthfully, I have been kind of avoiding it. I feel like I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much as the 2 earlier Bernstein's I have, although I should get it for its historic value., I suppose. Geez, Pat, he changed the words!   

[Pat B]

Truthfully, I have been kind of avoiding it. I feel like I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much as the 2 earlier Bernstein's I have, although I should get it for its historic value., I suppose. Geez, Pat, he changed the words!   

For a slightly more authentic approach you could try Stokowski.

(Actually I haven't heard Stokowski's 9th, and amazon reviewers say he changed some orchestration. But AFAIK Stokowski did not change the words, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to recommend Stokowski for authenticity .)

[Gurn Blanston]

For a slightly more authentic approach you could try Stokowski.

(Actually I haven't heard Stokowski's 9th, and amazon reviewers say he changed some orchestration. But AFAIK Stokowski did not change the words, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to recommend Stokowski for authenticity .)

  Just because he was a contemporary of Beethoven, doesn't make him authentic.

[Marc]

I couldn't remember where I read that, only that I did. I don't know, maybe the old Brüggen is good enough for me....

To me, the 9th is (also) the weakest link in Brüggen's first integral. So, for the moment, I share Gurn's (cautious) thoughts to skip Brüggen's new set.

The worst moment in his first 9th IMO is when tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson doesn't seem capable at all, alas, to bring Schiller's words to life in his solo part "Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen ....". 

[Gurn Blanston]

To me, the 9th is (also) the weakest link in Brüggen's first integral. So, for the moment, I share Gurn's (cautious) thoughts to skip Brüggen's new set.

The worst moment in his first 9th IMO is when tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson doesn't seem capable at all, alas, to bring Schiller's words to life in his solo part "Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen ....". 

Yes, as unbelievable as it seems...   And in my experience, ARJ is a fine singer too. Hard to understand. I'd be like "cut! Let's take it from the top there, Tony...".

[kishnevi]

To me, the 9th is (also) the weakest link in Brüggen's first integral. So, for the moment, I share Gurn's (cautious) thoughts to skip Brüggen's new set.

The worst moment in his first 9th IMO is when tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson doesn't seem capable at all, alas, to bring Schiller's words to life in his solo part "Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen ....". 

To be very clear, I think the new Bruggen (I've never heard the "old" set) is well worth getting.  The performances of symphonies 1-8 are top notch.  Even the first three movement of the Ninth are top notch. The orchestra and chorus in the last movement are top notch.   It's just that the two male soloists fail very noticeably in their key moments, so the whole thing falls flat on its face just when the finish line is in sight. (And these were live performances, so perhaps second takes were not possible.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, on the suggestions presented, I determined to get this performance to be #100;



and it succeeded mightily! This is my third Mackerras version, including the Royal Liverpool and Scottish CO editions. But here, we are working with period instruments, and doing a fine job of it too. Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment has been around in various incarnations for a long time, and despite that I've seen them described as a "pickup band", when you put together an orchestra made up of people from all the top rank PI orchestras, it is hard to go wrong! In any case, in this performance they are in top form.

As always, Mackerras' time beating is right on the mark (IMO), and though some might call it fleeting, I feel as though the entire is performed well within the bounds of Beethoven's concept. Performed in 1994 and released on 2011, this was long overdue to see the light of day. Since it is on Signum with an endorsement by OAE, I suspect it was only contractual obligations that made it take so long. Anyway, if you are as big a Mackerras fan as I am, you should give this one some consideration. For me, it's the best of both worlds, well played period instruments and a conductor who is loved and respected by every facet of the industry.

[North Star]

Interesting, Gurn! I'm definitely a fan of Mackerras, and HIP. How is the singing?

[Gurn Blanston]

Interesting, Gurn! I'm definitely a fan of Mackerras, and HIP. How is the singing?

It's very good; 8/10, I would say. I don't know any of the soloists, but the bass/baritone hits it nicely and the others are on target all through. Largish sounding chorus too, I might add. Definitely a good investment for me.

[Gurn Blanston]

Back in time today; no, not all the way back, but I was only 2 years old when this recording was made, so here's what I missed not being in Vienna that evening;



I read once in these pages that Scherchen was the first HIP conductor. Now on my second time through this disk, I still have to chuckle at that. Which is not to say that I don't like the disk, I do. I more than like it in fact. It is the best performance of any of my pre-1958 stereo-era disks. Sure, it has some modest sound issues (for example: by all appearances there isn't a chorus, just some very good soloists). But that doesn't put you off as much as you might think it would. Playing is first rate (the principle horn is super!), in many places the tempo is quite in line with modern performance standards, and in some places it isn't (the opening of the final movement is painfully slow, for example). But for MY tastes, if I am looking for a performance to represent that point in time, this one would do nicely. Just wish the sound was a bit better...

[zauberharfe]

I have two recordings by Furtwängler which, I think, are special even by his standards. Maybe they have already been mentioned earlier, I don't know.

First is: different version from the 22~24th Mar. 1942, Philharmonie, Berlin present on many labels. Unfortunately the sound is bad, but otherwise this might easily be the very best one I have heard (and I heard many versions, but I'm still far from a hundred  )

1) 19th Apr. 1942, Philharmonie, Berlin with  Berliner Philharmoniker, Bruno Kittel Choir, Erna Berger(S), Gertrude Pitzinger(A), Helge Rosvaenge(T), Rudol Watzke(B) (Archipel ARPCD 0270) Most dramatic first movement; unbelievable!

2) 29th Jul. 1951, Festspielhaus, Bayreuth with Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf(S), Elisabeth Höngen(A), Hans Hopf(T), Otto Edelmann(B) - The reopening of the Bayreuth Festspielhaus after WWII.

I am not sure if the first one is still available. If not, I can help.

[Gurn Blanston]

One of my consistently favorite old-school 9th conductors is Eugen Jochum. I have 3 of his recordings, spanning his career, or 30 years of it anyway.  The 1952 recording with the Bavarian RSO and the 1979 with the London PO are the bookends, and today's treat, the 1969 with the Royal Concertgebouworkest, which is my favorite of the three.



Don't let the cover fool you, Rose Records is a subset of Philips.

I like the way that Jochum has changed with the times; his 1952 recording sounds much more 'post-Romantic' than this one. The stylistic changes brought in by Fricsay, Von Karajan, Szell and others has taken hold and he executes it as well as anyone. Plus very fine singers, both soloists and chorus. This disk is in my Top Ten, and with good reason.

[Gurn Blanston]

Today I am enjoying another conductor of whom I have multiple versions, Daniel Barenboim.



I suspect that this is his first recorded effort, and he is driving such a hot machine that they are making him look good, rather than the later versions where he more than pulled his weight. Staatskapelle Berlin is one of those traditional, idiomatically central European orchestras to whom Beethoven arrived via their genes, I'm pretty sure of that.   Sure sounds like it anyway. Other than a few places where the tempo drags in the late first movement, I like his concept. And those of you who are always complaining that this movement is not enough poco maestoso for you, won't have any complaint coming here. That is well covered. Overall I give this one high marks for all the aspects that count for me. I've got the old Erato box from 1992, but I imagine whoever has the rights (Warner?) has released it again in a different incarnation. I don't think you would be disappointed with it at all.

[knight66]

Today I am enjoying another conductor of whom I have multiple versions, Daniel Barenboim.



I suspect that this is his first recorded effort, and he is driving such a hot machine that they are making him look good, rather than the later versions where he more than pulled his weight. Staatskapelle Berlin is one of those traditional, idiomatically central European orchestras to whom Beethoven arrived via their genes, I'm pretty sure of that.   Sure sounds like it anyway. Other than a few places where the tempo drags in the late first movement, I like his concept. And those of you who are always complaining that this movement is not enough poco maestoso for you, won't have any complaint coming here. That is well covered. Overall I give this one high marks for all the aspects that count for me. I've got the old Erato box from 1992, but I imagine whoever has the rights (Warner?) has released it again in a different incarnation. I don't think you would be disappointed with it at all.

No idea when he first recorded it, but I was in Chorus for one of his first performances in 1976, Philadelphia. He gave the choir almost no direction or notes, concentrating on the orchestra blend, he was definitely not getting what he wanted. There were repeats he wanted in, I think, the second movement and he enumerated the bar numbers and various players wrote them in. During the performance an entire section of first violins omitted the repeat and there was a noticeable stromash, (Scots word). Baremboim eyeballed the perpetrators fiercely and for some time. It was one of the orchestra who explained it to us afterwards. He also said those players had been substituted for the ones who had been at the rehearsal.

This continued to puzzle me as I don't recall hearing what I thought were different versions of the movements. Perhaps the practice has died out and we gathered that Ormandy could be a law to himself. Baremboim was using Ormandy's specially designed 'outdoor' podium which was said to be the the only air conditioned podium in existence.

But....to return to the performance, it seemed sane and efficient and at this point I don't think anyone woulld have detected the Furtwangler influence that Baremboim has subsequently voiced. It was not memorable, but it was trying interesting things. As an aside, Colin Davis referred to the opening chord of the first movement as, God turning the universe 'on'.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

No idea when he first recorded it, but I was in Chorus for one of his first performances in 1976, Philadelphia. He gave the choir almost no direction or notes, concentrating on the orchestra blend, he was definitely not getting what he wanted. There were repeats he wanted in, I think, the second movement and he enumerated the bar numbers and various players wrote them in. During the performance an entire section of first violins omitted the repeat and there was a noticeable stromash, (Scots word). Baremboim eyeballed the perpetrators fiercely and for some time. It was one of the orchestra who explained it to us afterwards. He also said those players had been substituted for the ones who had been at the rehearsal.

This continued to puzzle me as I don't recall hearing what I thought were different versions of the movements. Perhaps the practice has died out and we gathered that Ormandy could be a law to himself. Baremboim was using Ormandy's specially designed 'outdoor' podium which was said to be the the only air conditioned podium in existence.

But....to return to the performance, it seemed sane and efficient and at this point I don't think anyone would have detected the Furtwangler influence that Baremboim has subsequently voiced. It was not memorable, but it was trying interesting things. As an aside, Colin Davis referred to the opening chord of the first movement as, God turning the universe 'on'.

Mike

Very interesting, Mike, thanks for sharing that. Yes, the second movement in particular has a couple of different ways to play it, for example, when done fully, the entire trio is repeated completely. For a hundred years no one repeated it at all, and then for a time part of it was repeated, and now, finally, it is played as written. So you don't know, really, when looking at the timing on a recording, whether the repeat was taken, or whether they just played it too slow giving the same net.

Colin Davis is one of the few conductors who recorded the 9th from whom I have no record. It was apparently never sold singly, and I don't really want another entire cycle to get it, so for now, doing without.

[knight66]

Well, I am glad that I was not misremembering the detail. We had also done a 9th with Zubin Mehta on the same tour. It had generated more sheer excitement and a bar room debate discussed whether Mehta or Baremboim had the more potential. I was alone arguing that Baremboim would end up the greater conductor. I think most of the singers thought he was useless just because he had shown so little interest in us, but I felt that he was exploring the piece in a way Mehta was not. With Mehta it was ultra efficient, tight and exciting, but Danny Boy was clearly looking deeper into it as though it consisted of shifting sands. Obviously over the years he must have upped the ante with his singers; as he is clearly a great accompanist in Wagner now. We all have to learn, but because he was already so famous as a pianist he had to learn in the blazing light.

Mike

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I am glad that I was not misremembering the detail. We had also done a 9th with Zubin Mehta on the same tour. It had generated more sheer excitement and a bar room debate discussed whether Mehta or Baremboim had the more potential. I was alone arguing that Baremboim would end up the greater conductor. I think most of the singers thought he was useless just because he had shown so little interest in us, but I felt that he was exploring the piece in a way Mehta was not. With Mehta it was ultra efficient, tight and exciting, but Danny Boy was clearly looking deeper into it as though it consisted of shifting sands. Obviously over the years he must have upped the ante with his singers; as he is clearly a great accompanist in Wagner now. We all have to learn, but because he was already so famous as a pianist he had to learn in the blazing light.

Mike

Yes, back then, who knew?  Of course they were great friends at the time, and so shared some philosophy, but what I will say about Barenboim is that there have been several times in this thread that people mention some mysterious component to a performance without being able to name it. One could fairly call it "IT". And Danny's recordings have IT, while the lone Mehta recording I own, with the NYPO, is very nicely done, but it lacks IT. An indefinable thing, and yet palpable.

[knight66]

I have been lucky in singing this with a few good people, but never had a really distinguished go with it. Rattle, his very first performance of it, that was using a chamber orchestra. It was swift of foot, light in textures and missed all the mystery and the awe that sits within it. We were to sing to with Reginald Goodall, but he was ill and we had Andrew Davis, forgettable, nothing wrong, but nothing distinctive. Mazzel, ditto, carefully prepared and at pains to make sure the lines came through with the players, but again, left no memories.  Jarvi, OK.

Mike

[kishnevi]

Today I am enjoying another conductor of whom I have multiple versions, Daniel Barenboim.



I suspect that this is his first recorded effort, and he is driving such a hot machine that they are making him look good, rather than the later versions where he more than pulled his weight. Staatskapelle Berlin is one of those traditional, idiomatically central European orchestras to whom Beethoven arrived via their genes, I'm pretty sure of that.   Sure sounds like it anyway. Other than a few places where the tempo drags in the late first movement, I like his concept. And those of you who are always complaining that this movement is not enough poco maestoso for you, won't have any complaint coming here. That is well covered. Overall I give this one high marks for all the aspects that count for me. I've got the old Erato box from 1992, but I imagine whoever has the rights (Warner?) has released it again in a different incarnation. I don't think you would be disappointed with it at all.

I was going to say I have this one, but I don't.  The currently available set (avec chapeau) was recorded in 1999, with a totally different set of soloists (the most recognizable name among them being Rene Pape), so apparently he's recorded the Ninth (at least) twice with Staatskapelle B.   

Meanwhile,  a propos this thread,  I'm ordering this one in another tab of my browser even as I post here.
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We'll see how MTT does.