Leonard Bernstein 1918-1990

[San Antone]

San Antone, I just read through your collection of reviews on Mass. I find it strange that you didn't comment on the audio quality of the Nézet-Séguin recording, which I read was terrible. What's your opinion of this?

The Nézet-Séguin recording was recorded from live performances.  When I evaluate a recording I am looking at the quality of the performances and discount audio engineering issues, unless they degrade the experience.   But, the Nézet-Séguin recording doesn't have what I would call "bad" sound and the engineering never took away from my enjoyment the performances - which were very good. 

To say the sound is terrible, is an exaggeration, IMO. 

[Mirror Image]

The Nézet-Séguin recording was recorded from live performances.  When I evaluate a recording I am looking at the quality of the performances and discount audio engineering issues, unless they degrade the experience.   But, the Nézet-Séguin recording doesn't have what I would call "bad" sound and the engineering never took away from my enjoyment the performances - which were very good. 

To say the sound is terrible, is an exaggeration, IMO.

Well, this didn't stop the Hurwitzer:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/nezet-seguin-makes-mess-mass/

There's also several negative reviews on Amazon that specifically comment on the audio quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Mass-Nezet-Seguin-Philadelphia-Orchestra/dp/B0791VZ8VC/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Bernstein+Mass&qid=1584475022&s=music&sr=1-2

[San Antone]

Well, this didn't stop the Hurwitzer:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/nezet-seguin-makes-mess-mass/

LOL.  I can't take him serious.  The opening Kyrie is one of the pre-recorded sections and is meant to be purposely chaotic.  It doesn't sound "distant" to my ears.  The choirs sound very good to me, the Alleluia, for example is flawlesslly executed, Swingle Singer style.

I've never relied on Hurwitz as a critic.

Here's the Allmusic review, which I think is more accurate:

After more than four decades, Leonard Bernstein's original 1971 recording of Mass: A Theatre Piece for Singers, Players, and Dancers remains the definitive performance on CD, though several other contenders show that this work is ready for reinterpretation as it secures its place in the 21st century repertoire. This live 2015 performance on Deutsche Grammophon with the Philadelphia Orchestra, led by Yannick Nézet-Séguin, is among the worthy successors to Bernstein's recording, and it is quite close in attitude, pacing, and overall interpretation, if not always in details. Considering the massiveness and unwieldiness of all productions of Mass, which was written for multiple vocal soloists, two mixed choirs, a boy choir, a marching band, a rock band, dancers, quadraphonic tape, and orchestra, entrances and exchanges between the various singers and instrumental groups are sometimes imprecise. Kevin Vortmann's performance as the Celebrant is reminiscent Alan Titus' original portrayal, both in his pure vocal tone and spirited acting, though his voice loses volume and presence in the recording, no doubt due to staging. In fact, the only serious problem with this version is the variability of the sound, which makes some of the vocals seem remote. As an artifact of its time and as the most accurate account of the score, Bernstein's recording is decidedly the more valuable document, but Nézet-Séguin's reading demonstrates that Mass is still relevant for today's performers and audiences.

[Mirror Image]

LOL.  I can't take him serious.  The opening Kyrie is one of the pre-recorded sections and is meant to be purposely chaotic.  It doesn't sound "distant" to my ears.  The choirs sound very good to me, the Alleluia, for example is flawlesslly executed, Swingle Singer style.

I've never relied on Hurwitz as a critic.

Here's the Allmusic review, which I think is more accurate:

The All Music Guide doesn't really seem too positive to be honest. I hate any review that pits the recording being reviewed up against the classic performance from Bernstein. I mean I get that Bernstein's Columbia performance is 'the one to have' but if reviewers are constantly referring back to the original recording, then it makes me wonder why even bother with a new recording if it simply doesn't and won't ever measure up to the classic recording? In my experience, there are reasons why people acquire other recordings and that reason is to hear the work anew, but what's the point if the Bernstein recording is the best one?

[Mirror Image]

I seem to flock to these works of Bernstein's that nobody (for whatever reasons) don't talk about much like Halil and Songfest. Both of these works demonstrate a composer who could really write just about anything he wanted and in any style and it still sounds unmistakably like himself.

[San Antone]

The All Music Guide doesn't really seem too positive to be honest. I hate any review that pits the recording being reviewed up against the classic performance from Bernstein. I mean I get that Bernstein's Columbia performance is 'the one to have' but if reviewers are constantly referring back to the original recording, then it makes me wonder why even bother with a new recording if it simply doesn't and won't ever measure up to the classic recording? In my experience, there are reasons why people acquire other recordings and that reason is to hear the work anew, but what's the point if the Bernstein recording is the best one?

For me it's not about finding the "best" recording.  I didn't even want to rank the six recordings, and it was very hard since the differences were pretty slim in my mind.  What it comes down to me is the different performances, and each one is different, and each one has its strengths.  Only the Davies recording, I felt, was not a real contender. 

Bernstein's is the reference recording because of his involvement and the fact that it was the premier recording with all the excitement and authenticity  that conveys. Also, Alan Titus is near perfect for the role, but Jublilant Sykes comes close and brings a different quality to the role beyond what Titus offers.  Same with Vortmann with Netzet-Seguin.  Jerry Hadley took me some getting used to, for me, but his performance is actually really very good. Yes, it is operatic in style, but it has a warnth and strenght which also brings a nice quality to Nagano's recording.

Those four are all real close, IMO.

[Mirror Image]

For me it's not about finding the "best" recording.  I didn't even want to rank the six recordings, and it was very hard since the differences were pretty slim in my mind.  What it comes down to me is the different performances, and each one is different, and each one has its strengths.  Only the Davies recording, I felt, was not a real contender. 

Bernstein's is the reference recording because of his involvement and the fact that it was the premier recording with all the excitement and authenticity  that conveys. Also, Alan Titus is near perfect for the role, but Jublilant Sykes comes close and brings a different quality to the role beyond what Titus offers.  Same with Vortmann with Netzet-Seguin.  Jerry Hadley took me some getting used to, for me, but his performance is actually really very good. Yes, it is operatic in style, but it has a warnth and strenght which also brings a nice quality to Nagano's recording.

Those four are all real close, IMO.

Besides Bernstein's recording, I own Alsop and Nézet-Séguin. I've heard the Alsop twice maybe and I recall enjoying it, but wouldn't rank it above the Bernstein. Anyway, let's get outside of the Mass, what do you think of works like Halil or Songfest? I also feel that the piano and chamber music doesn't get enough attention. Of course, I love West Side Story, the symphonies, Serenade, On the Waterfront Suite, Trouble in Tahiti, Facsimile, On the Town, Wonderful Town, amongst other works.

[San Antone]

... let's get outside of the Mass, what do you think of works like Halil or Songfest? I also feel that the piano and chamber music doesn't get enough attention. Of course, I love West Side Story, the symphonies, Serenade, On the Waterfront Suite, Trouble in Tahiti, Facsimile, On the Town, Wonderful Town, amongst other works.

Songfest, except for a couple of sections doesn't knock me out, and Halil as Bernstein's 12-tone work, and while interesting is not a work I listen to much.  I really think his metier was theater music, so the stage works are my favorites - but I really like his Symphony No. 2 "Age of Anxiety".  His solo and chamber works seem somewhat slight in comparison, although enjoyable.

Prelude, Fugue and Riffs is very much fun; too bad Woody Herman never got around to recording it (Bernstein took it back because he never got paid from Herman). On the Waterfront is good, but again, I don't find myself gravitating to it often.

I have never heard a work of his that I didn't like, but there are a handful that I really love above all the others.

[Roasted Swan]

For me it's not about finding the "best" recording.  I didn't even want to rank the six recordings, and it was very hard since the differences were pretty slim in my mind.  What it comes down to me is the different performances, and each one is different, and each one has its strengths.  Only the Davies recording, I felt, was not a real contender. 

Bernstein's is the reference recording because of his involvement and the fact that it was the premier recording with all the excitement and authenticity  that conveys. Also, Alan Titus is near perfect for the role, but Jublilant Sykes comes close and brings a different quality to the role beyond what Titus offers.  Same with Vortmann with Netzet-Seguin.  Jerry Hadley took me some getting used to, for me, but his performance is actually really very good. Yes, it is operatic in style, but it has a warnth and strenght which also brings a nice quality to Nagano's recording.

Those four are all real close, IMO.

San Antone - we agree a LOT about the sheer quality of Bernstein the composer but we'll have to agree to disagree about the technical quality of the DG/Nezet-Seguin recording.  I was (and remain) astounded by how poor the DG sound is.  I contributed one of the Amazon.com reviews where I wrote; 

"I don't write Amazon reviews these days. But to stop anyone else wasting their money I'm writing this one. On paper this seemed a sure-fire winner; top-notch conductor (allegedly conducting a favourite piece), top-notch American orchestra with these kind of music and style in their bones, Bernstein's old label DG finally making a recording of this work to mark his centenary (I wonder why of all his works Bernstein did not re-record this for DG?) ..... what could possibly go wrong.

Put to one side whether you think the work is genius or rubbish recycled kitsch. I love it so I really wanted to love this new recording too. The BIG BIG problem is the DG engineering. They simply have not been able to cope with the multiple acoustic layers (literally) of the work recorded live. The sound floor goes up and down, the various playing and singing ensembles never sound fully integrated either with themselves or each other. In the big climaxes the sound is simply congested. Balances are odd - percussion can be very clear, an organ pedal will suddenly blare out but then other details or lines are crassly balanced. There is quite a lot of extraneous audience noise and again the scale of this work live leads to problems of tuning and ensemble that you simply don't expect to hear these days - let alone from performers of this level. A couple of pictures in the booklet from these performances show the orchestra in a semi-covered pit with the band onstage together with semi-staging for the various soloists and choirs.

Nezet-Seguin does nothing with the work that isn't done better elsewhere (much better on the original - and simply with more polish on Alsop's Naxos set or indeed Jarvi on Chandos). The solo singers are no match in terms of vocal personality or engagement with the originals. Like the other reviewer I much prefer a baritone as the celebrant and again Titus easily trumps the vocal affectations of Jubilant Sykes for Alsop. But that said tenor Kevin Vortmann is very committed and a couple of times the tessitura of the part means that he can sings lines in full voice where Titus has to falsetto. But then conversely he struggles in the "de profundis" section to ward the end of the work. But as a tenor he lacks the authority a baritone brings and also struggles to make dramatic sense of the extended "mad scene" towards the end of the work. The key (and also the problem for performers) with this work is its dizzying eclecticism - you need to be as comfortable rocking a ballad as you do singing a near atonal angular vocal line. Very few people can do both - if you needed proof of that listen to this

For those interested, as with all the other recent recordings (in fact all except the original) this uses the revised text - I like the unashamed naffness of the original personally.

This really is strikingly poor - I am genuinely surprised that the DG production team and indeed Nezet-Seguin sanctioned this for release."

[Roasted Swan]

Songfest, except for a couple of sections doesn't knock me out, and Halil as Bernstein's 12-tone work, and while interesting is not a work I listen to much.  I really think his metier was theater music, so the stage works are my favorites - but I really like his Symphony No. 2 "Age of Anxiety".  His solo and chamber works seem somewhat slight in comparison, although enjoyable.

Prelude, Fugue and Riffs is very much fun; too bad Woody Herman never got around to recording it (Bernstein took it back because he never got paid from Herman). On the Waterfront is good, but again, I don't find myself gravitating to it often.

I have never heard a work of his that I didn't like, but there are a handful that I really love above all the others.

Again we agree San Antone!  Songfest leaves me mildly interested but not excited in the way much/most Bernstein does.  I agree completely about "theatre" being Bernstein's real strength.  My own personal blind spot is Dybbuk which never fails to under-engage me and goodness me I've tried

[San Antone]

San Antone - we agree a LOT about the sheer quality of Bernstein the composer but we'll have to agree to disagree about the technical quality of the DG/Nezet-Seguin recording.  I was (and remain) astounded by how poor the DG sound is.  I contributed one of the Amazon.com reviews where I wrote; 

"I don't write Amazon reviews these days. But to stop anyone else wasting their money I'm writing this one. On paper this seemed a sure-fire winner; top-notch conductor (allegedly conducting a favourite piece), top-notch American orchestra with these kind of music and style in their bones, Bernstein's old label DG finally making a recording of this work to mark his centenary (I wonder why of all his works Bernstein did not re-record this for DG?) ..... what could possibly go wrong.

Put to one side whether you think the work is genius or rubbish recycled kitsch. I love it so I really wanted to love this new recording too. The BIG BIG problem is the DG engineering. They simply have not been able to cope with the multiple acoustic layers (literally) of the work recorded live. The sound floor goes up and down, the various playing and singing ensembles never sound fully integrated either with themselves or each other. In the big climaxes the sound is simply congested. Balances are odd - percussion can be very clear, an organ pedal will suddenly blare out but then other details or lines are crassly balanced. There is quite a lot of extraneous audience noise and again the scale of this work live leads to problems of tuning and ensemble that you simply don't expect to hear these days - let alone from performers of this level. A couple of pictures in the booklet from these performances show the orchestra in a semi-covered pit with the band onstage together with semi-staging for the various soloists and choirs.

Nezet-Seguin does nothing with the work that isn't done better elsewhere (much better on the original - and simply with more polish on Alsop's Naxos set or indeed Jarvi on Chandos). The solo singers are no match in terms of vocal personality or engagement with the originals. Like the other reviewer I much prefer a baritone as the celebrant and again Titus easily trumps the vocal affectations of Jubilant Sykes for Alsop. But that said tenor Kevin Vortmann is very committed and a couple of times the tessitura of the part means that he can sings lines in full voice where Titus has to falsetto. But then conversely he struggles in the "de profundis" section to ward the end of the work. But as a tenor he lacks the authority a baritone brings and also struggles to make dramatic sense of the extended "mad scene" towards the end of the work. The key (and also the problem for performers) with this work is its dizzying eclecticism - you need to be as comfortable rocking a ballad as you do singing a near atonal angular vocal line. Very few people can do both - if you needed proof of that listen to this

For those interested, as with all the other recent recordings (in fact all except the original) this uses the revised text - I like the unashamed naffness of the original personally.

This really is strikingly poor - I am genuinely surprised that the DG production team and indeed Nezet-Seguin sanctioned this for release."

Well, you obviously know the work and the recordings, and you also place much more emphasis on evaluating the recorded sound than I do - so I can't fault anything you wrote.  But I didn't notice the sound being especially bad in any event.  It is a live recording, and I've listened to many live opera recordings which are a lot worse; some Callas recordings are judged her best and they have horrible sound.

But I've never placed much emphasis on engineering.  I am the opposite of an audiophile, i.e. I don't mean I prefer lousy sound, it's just that I am very forgiving and can hear through whatever sound there is in order to listen to the performance. 

And I still think Nezet-Seguin's gets very good performances out of his group.

[San Antone]

Again we agree San Antone!  Songfest leaves me mildly interested but not excited in the way much/most Bernstein does.  I agree completely about "theatre" being Bernstein's real strength.  My own personal blind spot is Dybbuk which never fails to under-engage me and goodness me I've tried

I had never heard Dybbuk, but since you brought it up I decided to listen to it.  Very interesting work.

[Mirror Image]

Songfest, except for a couple of sections doesn't knock me out, and Halil as Bernstein's 12-tone work, and while interesting is not a work I listen to much.  I really think his metier was theater music, so the stage works are my favorites - but I really like his Symphony No. 2 "Age of Anxiety".  His solo and chamber works seem somewhat slight in comparison, although enjoyable.

Prelude, Fugue and Riffs is very much fun; too bad Woody Herman never got around to recording it (Bernstein took it back because he never got paid from Herman). On the Waterfront is good, but again, I don't find myself gravitating to it often.

I have never heard a work of his that I didn't like, but there are a handful that I really love above all the others.

According to Bernstein, all of his music could be considered theatre music. So I'll take his word over everyone else's. Well, I finished listening to Mass and while it's enjoyable, it's not a work I'm absolutely enthralled by and find it actually one of his weaker works overall. I find the hodgepodge of musical styles interesting, but not interesting in a Schnittkian kind of way. I won't be listening to this work again for a long-time.

[Karl Henning]

I had never heard Dybbuk, but since you brought it up I decided to listen to it.  Very interesting work.

I should revisit that.

Fact is, I should locate that Sony box and listen to the Mass.

[San Antone]

I should revisit that.

Fact is, I should locate that Sony box and listen to the Mass.

I am going to spend some time with Candide and a few other works I've not given much attention to, like A Quiet Place, Dybbuk, Halil and Songfest.

[vers la flamme]

I've been listening to Chichester Psalms and the "Jeremiah" Symphony a lot lately. The second movement of the former and the finale of the latter are both very beautiful. Definitely proof of his compositional talents to any doubters of his worth as a composer. I'm glad that Bernstein is coming to be seen in a more serious light. It's almost a shame that he spent so much of his life conducting the music of others. He could have written so much more.

[Mookalafalas]

I recently saw a performance of "Happy Town" on DVD. It was on stage but not performed as a play--just doing the songs in the "spirit" of the play, I guess. Anyway, it was delightful.  Sort of "on the Town" meets "Our Town", if that makes sense--catchy tunes, humor (corny!), but trying to give a portrait (cleaned up and idealized) of small town American life at mid-century. Of course it was very white and Norman Rockwell, but it was very enjoyable.   

[San Antone]

I've been listening to Chichester Psalms and the "Jeremiah" Symphony a lot lately. The second movement of the former and the finale of the latter are both very beautiful. Definitely proof of his compositional talents to any doubters of his worth as a composer. I'm glad that Bernstein is coming to be seen in a more serious light. It's almost a shame that he spent so much of his life conducting the music of others. He could have written so much more.

He said late in life that his one regret was that he had not done more composing.  During the eleven years he was primary conductor of the NYP he wrote two just works, Chichester Psalms and the Kaddish symphony.

[San Antone]

I recently saw a performance of "Happy Town" on DVD. It was on stage but not performed as a play--just doing the songs in the "spirit" of the play, I guess. Anyway, it was delightful.  Sort of "on the Town" meets "Our Town", if that makes sense--catchy tunes, humor (corny!), but trying to give a portrait (cleaned up and idealized) of small town American life at mid-century. Of course it was very white and Norman Rockwell, but it was very enjoyable.   

As far as I can tell, Leonard Bernstein had nothing to do with the musical "Happy Town" which apparently had five performances in 1959 (music was by Gordon Duffy, lyrics by Harry Haldane, and book by Max Hampton, with additional songs by Paul Nassau). 

Are you maybe getting it confused with either On the Town or Wonderful Town?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I am going to spend some time with Candide and a few other works I've not given much attention to, like A Quiet Place, Dybbuk, Halil and Songfest.

I think Candide is one of the best things Bernstein did. But I greatly prefer the original Broadway recording to any of the remakes.