Make a Jazz Noise Here

[jowcol]

Both jazz and classical are best, IMO, when they stick to their own traditions and don't try to crossover into the other territory.  Jazz and classical are musics with deep traditions and a musician is foolish to think they can credibly convey ether one with only a superficial experience with it.

Interesting point-- I tend to feel the same about blues and a lot of third world music.   

One thing I liked about the liner notes to Ellington's Far East Suite is that he made it clear that there was not attempt to directly copy any of the eastern sources, since that would end up sounding like an academic exercise.  Instead, the music on that album is intended to be how it is perceived through their own filter of experience and capability.

[Grazioso]

Leon, it's vital that you realize the depth and breadth of art music and don't fall for that songbook jazz pap. May I recommend this Jamesian guide, edited by our own Jowcol? A scholarly masterpiece that presents wisdom for the ages in an accessible manner. Illustrated.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503335#msg503335

Jowcol, if you dig Pearson and Byrd, check out Byrd in Flight on Blue Note, with a good band (Byrd, Pearson, McLean, Mobley, etc.) and a number of Pearson tunes.

[Grazioso]

Interesting point-- I tend to feel the same about blues and a lot of third world music.   

One thing I liked about the liner notes to Ellington's Far East Suite is that he made it clear that there was not attempt to directly copy any of the eastern sources, since that would end up sounding like an academic exercise.  Instead, the music on that album is intended to be how it is perceived through their own filter of experience and capability.

One sees that with some classical composers, who chose to employ their own folk-like tunes instead of pillaging the real things. Dvorak, for example.

[karlhenning]

The "definitive Duke Ellington" CD to accompany the Ken Burns film, is mighty fine.  Maybe I should strike the scare-quotes, then . . . .

[escher]

Leon-  I'd have to agree with James that you are totally lost on this one. 

Art Music = Music James Likes
Derivative or Pop = Music James doesn't like.

and I for one do stand "in awe" of sweeping generalizations...

[Mirror Image]

This may be a bit rad, but I'll try to return to the original theme here.  A fave jazz "composer" of mine is Duke Pearson-- I'm not sure if one could claim he set the world on fire, but I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of some of his works

Duke Pearson was a good jazz composer and pinned some cool tunes. Two of my other favorites besides Monk are Bobby Timmons ("Moanin," "Dat Dere," "This Here")  and Benny Golson ("Along Came Betty," "Blues March," "Stablemates," "Killer Joe,"). Both were alumni of Art Blakey and have had successful solo careers.

I also love Horace Silver. Man, he's pinned some good tunes: The Natives Are Restless Tonight, Song For My Father, Calcutta Cutie, Cape Verdean Blues, Cool Eyes, Shirl, Senor Blues, Peace, Sister Sadie, Blowin' The Blues Away,etc.

[jowcol]

Leon, it's vital that you realize the depth and breadth of art music and don't fall for that songbook jazz pap. May I recommend this Jamesian guide, edited by our own Jowcol? A scholarly masterpiece that presents wisdom for the ages in an accessible manner. Illustrated.

PFFT!    PFFFT!    PFFT!    PFFT!     PFFT!    PFFT!
Dude. You are totally off base.  You are out of your depth on this one, I'm afraid, and it's quite transparent..   You must not have a musical brain.    This is just more of your hollow conjecture.

No "book" will capture the man in all of his totalness. 



"Hey, man, you don't talk to James. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a poet-warrior in the classic sense. I mean, sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say "Hello" to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say "Do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life?  Do you know if you add an 'f" to art music you get fart music?  '– I mean, I'm no, I can't – I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's, he's a great man. I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas – I mean..."

Jowcol, talking about his mentor....

[escher]

I also love Horace Silver. Man, he's pinned some good tunes: The Natives Are Restless Tonight, Song For My Father, Calcutta Cutie, Cape Verdean Blues, Cool Eyes, Shirl, Senor Blues, Peace, Sister Sadie, Blowin' The Blues Away,etc.

i totally love Senor blues and especially Shirl (so different from the common idea of Silver as the funk/hard bop musician par excellence). What a beautiful piece.

[Mirror Image]

i totally love Senor blues and especially Shirl (so different from the common idea of Silver as the funk/hard bop musician par excellence). What a beautiful piece.

I remember going through a Horace Silver phase many years ago and I bought all of his albums. I think he's a difficult pianist/composer to pin down because he really was looking for ways to expand on his already excellent knowledge of the jazz tradition.

[jowcol]

i totally love Senor blues and especially Shirl (so different from the common idea of Silver as the funk/hard bop musician par excellence). What a beautiful piece.

Ditto on Senor Blues.   I've recently heard of cover by Taj Mahal that worked really well. 

[escher]

They all have their own little voice, working within their own little narrow parameters .. this includes Holdsworth.

The GENIUS (again, your words) with his own little voice. 

Lifetime's Emergency! is great ... but Believe It with Allan Holdsworth (a genius on the guitar) is tops.

But  you have said a different thing: they are derivative, they took their ideas from classical composers and they are old fashioned. And it's clear that you can only repeat empty sentences like this as a mantra because you have no real arguments.

[jowcol]

It is widely used .. so it's not 'my phrase' .. and you are lost on everything we have been talking about here.

It's true.  We are all totally lost-- waiting for the CHOSEN ONE to save us from mediocre and insubstantial music, and to guide us, in his infinite wisdom, only to listen to the most demanding, non commercial music-- like Weather Report!

[jowcol]

God .. you ever notice how so much 'traditional jazz'  has so little variation.

I'm a bit disappointed that it did not earn the "retarded chimp" designation.   I'll need to work harder.

[Grazioso]

It's all music was my point, erase the 'tags' and look at the musical result .. i like some good jazz as much as the next guy but it doesn't stack up at all. Not even close. But then again, no form of popular music does, including film pastiche.

That's disingenuous. Consider an analogy: take sushi, a birthday cake, and an energy bar. All food? Yes. All consumed under the same circumstances? Only if you're Andrew Zimmern. All for the same purpose? No. All prepared with the same ingredients and methods? No. All judged according to the same standards by those who actually know about cooking and baking? No.

A similar situation obtains for music: different genres have different elements, different traditions, different expectations, different criteria for judgment... Of course, to judge those genres with any insight, you have to actually educate yourself about them...

God .. you ever notice how so much 'traditional jazz'  has so little variation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/41IBQkuA1QMhttp://www.youtube.com/v/l-dYNttdgl0http://www.youtube.com/v/_SGdzbQAzoo


you ever notice how so much 'art music'  has so little variation. 

_{(Play all of them at once, and you get Charles Ives!)}

[Grazioso]

It's true.  We are all totally lost-- waiting for the CHOSEN ONE to save us from mediocre and insubstantial music, and to guide us, in his infinite wisdom, only to listen to the most demanding, non commercial music-- like Weather Report!

Verily, thou shalt acquire true wisdom in Teen Town.

[Grazioso]

Like I said i am a jazz fan but it's based on nothing new at all ..

I'd bet you'd fit in great with the other jazz "fans" at a Village Vanguard gig featuring McCoy Tyner:

"I'm a jazz fan! This Tyner guy is completely narrow and unoriginal. You know, I'm a jazz fan, and he has his own little voice within narrow parameters. I'm a jazz fan like I said, but he's not Stockhausen, there's no vast depth and breadth of art music here. Pfft jazz solos all noodling, with so little variation. Why's everybody getting angry? I'm a jazz fan!"

[karlhenning]

Pat Metheny, New Chautauqua

[jowcol]

Verily, thou shalt acquire true wisdom in Teen Town.

If only sellouts like Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, or Ornette Coleman had pushed the envelope as much as that one song, Jazz would be a much richer art form-- but not everybody is comfortable taking risks.

[jowcol]

This album, something I've listening probably a thousand times never gets tiresome.  Right now, listening to All Blues and I am struck by the restraint and slow burn of the track.  This song and arrangement has been covered countless times, but few rise to the level of the one on this recording:

Great choice.  Are you familiar with the 1960 Copenhagen show from that tour? 
http://www.amazon.com/Copenhaguen-Miles-Quintet-Davis-Coltrane/dp/B000BPN26I

Wynton Kelly had replaced Bill Evans but of all of the recordings from this tour floating around, this one had both So What and All Blues on the setlist.

[Mirror Image]

i  never really think about music in those manufactured terms at all. It's all music.

That's absolute bullshit James and you know it. You've used these "manufactured terms" with music before and you continue to do so.