Make a Jazz Noise Here

[bwv 1080]

another minstrel tune from the 1850s

http://www.youtube.com/v/qAiRJxQb3VE

[Mirror Image]

01 Unsung Heroes
02 Rob Ray
03 Spell
04 Child At Heart
05 Beautiful E.
06 Again
07 Smillin' Jones
08 Where In The World?
09 Worry Doll
10 Let Me In

Bill Frisell guitars, ukulele
Hank Roberts cello, jazz-a-phone fiddle
Kermit Driscoll basses
Joey Baron drums

Bill Frisell is my guitar hero. I own every recording he has ever made including guest appearances (over 100+ recordings total). Where in the World? is really Frisell's last foray into the style of music he had been working on since the 1988 recording Lookout for Hope (which is Hank Roberts first recording with Frisell). I think Where in the World along with 1992's Have A Little Faith and 1994's This Land (which was actually recorded in 1992) are some of Frisell's finest albums as a leader.

[Henk]

Ellington is great.

[Henk]

[jowcol]

Bill Frisell is my guitar hero. I own every recording he has ever made including guest appearances (over 100+ recordings total). Where in the World? is really Frisell's last foray into the style of music he had been working on since the 1988 recording Lookout for Hope (which is Hank Roberts first recording with Frisell). I think Where in the World along with 1992's Have A Little Faith and 1994's This Land (which was actually recorded in 1992) are some of Frisell's finest albums as a leader.

Did you catch his guest appearance with McCoy Tyner on the Guitars album?


The album can be uneven, depending on your take on some of the different guests, but it has some strong tracks, and I really liked the Frisell pairing on Contemplation, which is a fave tune of mine.

[jowcol]

Speaking of Joe Henderson, he played on one of my all time desert Island jazz albums, Ptah the El Daoud by Alice Coltrane.  IMO, she never got enough credit for coming up with a very spirtual, world-music take on the post-Coltrane scene.  Her Journey in Satchidananda album wasn't quite as strong, but I loved the use of tambura on some of the tracks, and the two of them are albums I return to frequently.



   1. "Ptah, the El Daoud" – 13:58
   2. "Turiya and Ramakrishna" – 8:19
   3. "Blue Nile" – 6:58
   4. "Mantra" – 16:33


    * Alice Coltrane — harp, piano
    * Joe Henderson — alto flute, tenor saxophone
    * Pharoah Sanders — alto flute, tenor saxophone, bells
    * Ron Carter — bass
    * Ben Riley — drums


If anybody wants a taste- the first track is below. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/CxYjG4a41j4

http://www.youtube.com/v/67Lx5C_8cu4

[Leon]

Chick Corea - Friends, good but not nearly his best work.  I prefer Now He Sings, Now He Sobs, Circle-Live and the first two RTF (with Flora Purim and Airto).  The duo with Gary Burton is good, they did a followup last year.  I like most of that ECM 70s stuff and recently listened to a lot of Enrico Rava, Eberhard Weber, Tomasz Stanko, Barre Phillips, Ralph Towner, Arild Andersen, Jan Garbarek and others from that period and enjoyed it plenty.   There is alot of European jazz, esp. Italian, that is really very good.  Enrico Pieranunzi (with Marc Johnson, Paul Motian) is very good.

Joe Farrell is a great sax player but his own recordings are very uneven.  While very good, I don't consider Michael Brecker the "best sax player of his generation" - many other players at least as good and a few much better.  For instance, I consider Bransford Marasalis a better player, as well as Joe Lovano.

The live set of the Joe Henderson pianoless trio is fantastic.

I never found much to like in the Alice Coltrane recordings.

Bill Frisell is good and makes very interesting recordings.  For me he is the modern electric equivalent of John Fahey - but more jazz, for sure, although I would not call him a "jazz guitarist". 

Jazz guitarists fall into three groups for me, and I have clear preferences:

1. Absolute jazz: Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney
2. Soulful/groove: Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, John Scofield
3. Fusion jerkoffs: most of the ones James likes.

[bwv 1080]

70's Samba-Funk fusion - how could it get any better?

http://www.youtube.com/v/FN2kFvTXsas

[jowcol]

Bill Frisell is good and makes very interesting recordings.  For me he is the modern electric equivalent of John Fahey - but more jazz, for sure, although I would not call him a "jazz guitarist". 

Jazz guitarists fall into three groups for me, and I have clear preferences:

1. Absolute jazz: Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney
2. Soulful/groove: Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, John Scofield
3. Fusion jerkoffs: most of the ones James likes.

I never made the Frisell-Fahey connection-- and am still trying to reconcile it in my head.  Interesting point-- they both have(had) such great tone.

I must also sign up for being fond of several of those "fusion jerkoffs" myself.   I don't see much commercial pandering in an album like Sonnny Sharrock's Ask the Ages.

YMMV....

[Leon]

Yeh, there's plenty of good music out there - and we obviously have different tastes, with some overlap.

I also like Moon Germs and Penny Arcade.

If I had to name my favorite guitarists, it would be Jim Hall, Grant Green and Tal Farlow.  Not t that these guys are better than others, just that their records are the ones I consistently enjoy.   I was not being entirely serious with my aside on fusion guitarists, since I do like McGlaughlin and others like Larry Coryell , Scofield and John Abercrombie (probably the one I like best of that style).  I've never been much of a fan of Pat Metheny - although some of his CDs I enjoy, Song X and Beyond The Missouri Sky.

However, the jazz I love beyond all other is the post-bop and early free jazz.  Miles' 70s electric recordings are consistently the only "fusion" jazz that I like, unqualified.  There are other isolated recordings from the 70s, and after, that are of the fusion type (Birds of Fire, Lifetime) - but I prefer going back to the 40s and 30s rather than forward in time from the 50s and 60s.

I do really enjoy the free jazz from the 70s, Marty Ehrlich, Tim Berne, John Zorn and that whole scene is fun.

Chris Potter is a good sax guy out there today.  Bob Mintzer, Dick Oatts, Greg Osby - also good, but a but a bit older.

There's so much good jazz, it is silly to quibble over these things.  I'm a big believer in going with what you natually like and shrugging off the rest.

[jowcol]

Yeh, there's plenty of good music out there - and we obviously have different tastes, with some overlap.

I also like Moon Germs and Penny Arcade.

If I had to name my favorite guitarists, it would be Jim Hall, Grant Green and Tal Farlow.  Not t that these guys are better than others, just that their records are the ones I consistently enjoy.   I was not being entirely serious with my aside on fusion guitarists, since I do like McGlaughlin and others like Larry Coryell , Scofield and John Abercrombie (probably the one I like best of that style).  I've never been much of a fan of Pat Metheny - although some of his CDs I enjoy, Song X and Beyond The Missouri Sky.

However, the jazz I love beyond all other is the post-bop and early free jazz.  Miles' 70s electric recordings are consistently the only "fusion" jazz that I like, unqualified.  There are other isolated recordings from the 70s, and after, that are of the fusion type (Birds of Fire, Lifetime) - but I prefer going back to the 40s and 30s rather than forward in time from the 50s and 60s.

I do really enjoy the free jazz from the 70s, Marty Ehrlich, Tim Berne, John Zorn and that whole scene is fun.

Chris Potter is a good sax guy out there today.  Bob Mintzer, Dick Oatts, Greg Osby - also good, but a but a bit older.

Grant Green is an excellent choice-- Idle Moments and Matador are my two faves, and those are much more straight ahead jazz.

Jon Abercrombie's Timeless-- I must admit I've maybe listened to the the whole album twice, but I've been known to listen to the title track for hours, and grab up every alternative version I can find.

I mentioned Sonny Sharrock's Ask the Ages before-- recorded in 1990, but sounds like it was recorded in 69 -71. 

McLaughlin's Extrapolations is pretty straight ahead compared to some of his other work, but I dearly love the Mahavishnu Orchestra.   I'm only so-so on his Shakti stuff (I tend to like my Indian stuff less diluted), but there was a track on the Saturday Night in Bombay Album with my Santur idol Shivkumar Sharma where he did a great job of staying within the raga structure.

There's so much good jazz, it is silly to quibble over these things.  I'm a big believer in going with what you natually like and shrugging off the rest.

Only thing I'd change with that sentence is to substitute "music" for "jazz".

[Henk]

Wes Montgomery is my favourite guitar player, he stands out. All his recordings are great.

[Henk]

Chris Potter is a good sax guy out there today.

Nah (dictatorship of the saxophone, the problem with a lot of jazz). Check out Miguel Zenon.

[jowcol]

I don't really dig your taste in guitarists ... and Song X is truly awful ... the best Metheny stuff is the trio recordings ... but the very nature of jazz is very hit & miss... Ornette's best stuff is some of the early Atlantic stuff ... haven't liked much since.

Bop generally bores me to tears and free jazz encompasses a lot, it's not just playing as out as possible (that kind of "free music" I hate the most). Miles's 70s electric is very hit & miss, most of it miss, rambling garbage with a backbeat .. it does have it's moments tho .. ditto his 80s stuff.

Nothing tops Weather Report in electric jazz, they brought it to the highest level in that idiom. And Mahavishnu of course was a major band, nothing has really come close since. Lifetime was great, especially Believe It! with guitar-genius Allan Holdsworth ... who's deepened much since ... it's hard not to appreciate the harmonic depth he's achieved plus the he's the most naturally fluid & lyrical improvising guitarist I can think of. Few match him. McLaughlin has lost the plot since his best years ... (i.e. some Miles, Mahavishnu, Shakti)

Hate Zorn ... Potter's alright. Osby's alright. None of them touch Brecker or are as influencial.

Most of the fuseniks  I've interacted with would not rate Weather Report so high-- but if you find a sound that talks to you, more power to you.  My basic impression was that WR was a lot more pop-friendly and less adventuresome than Miles from the period-- or at least I'd say much more risk adverse.   But the progressive shifting of styles Miles when through created its own challenges.  ALthough some of his 70s stuff was not all on the same level  (I don't really get On the Corner), I love the 73-75 bands to a fault.  And I would stack Live Evil, Jack Johnson, Bitches Brew, Agharta and Pangaea way over anything by WR, but that's my personal slant.  Most of 80s Miles was much less daring, IMO, I think we touched on the stronger 80s albums earlier in this thread.

Agree for the most part on McLaughlin not being as impressive after the MO, although After the Rain was a very good album, and I really like the boots from the 96 tour with Elvin Jones.

Metheny never really caught my attention-- but maybe I wasn't in the right mindset.   A lot of artists I come back to and enjoy later when I didn't care for them at first.

Of course, we could turn the thread to Jazz violinists.... 

[bwv 1080]

pre-Jaco Weather Report was some of the best fusion of the 70s, Sweetnighter being the best album IMO

the late 70s began to move toward spyro gyra 80s hot tub jazz

[Mirror Image]

Since we're discussing jazz guitarists some of my favorites are Bill Frisell, John Abercrombie, Ben Monder, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Ed Bickert, Pat Metheny, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Steve Cardenas, Kenny Burrell, Brad Shepik, Ralph Towner, and for fusion guitarists I like Shawn Lane, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Terje Rypdal, and Holdsworth (session work from the 70s, mid-80s to early 90s work as a leader).

[Mirror Image]

As a general rule .. I prefer horn players & keyboard/piano players to guitarists (because they tend to have a larger & more advanced vocab to listen to). But I do like things from some of the names you mentioned - some more than others; some other players that are on my radar as far as guitarists are concerned are; the unbelievable George Benson ... man he's something else, a real talent. Scott Henderson of course, monster player in many modes. Steve Topping is great, wish he'd record more. And Wayne Krantz is probably the only guitarist guitarist of recent that I thought was really exciting/good/fresh - check out 2 Drink Minimum.

Since I'm a guitarist, the players of my instrument were what drew me to jazz first. As time went on, I listened to other instruments: piano, vibraphone (one of my favorite instruments next to piano), trumpet, saxophone, trombone, etc.

I'm not too into Topping or Krantz, I do enjoy Scott Henderson, particularly when he played in Tribal Tech. On his own, I don't much for him, though he did some great session work, especially with Jean-Luc Ponty and Joe Zawinul.

George Benson is a good player, but makes mediocre music at best. Technically great, creatively dull when it comes to coming up with engaging songs, so he doesn't do much for me. I like creative music first and great musicianship second.

These days I'm more into big band: Kenton, Herman, Ellington, Basie, among others.

[Mirror Image]

What have you heard? These musicians are top-shelf.

I don't remember, but then again, it's not important, because my opinion was formed years ago. Being a "top shelf" musician doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. I either connect with their playing or I don't.

Solo Scott is the essence of the man ... lots of great stuff, and he's able to explore the instrument more. I love it all.

Henderson is a great player, but I prefer him in the context of Tribal Tech. Outside of this group, he has pretty much been a big disappointment. I remember hearing a blues album he did and thinking "What a waste of God given ability." He should retire.

Benson is a great player who has made really engaging, creative & finely crafted albums & music. That's why he has the reputation as being one of the finest in the pantheon. He's super talented. I prefer his mid-70s to early 80s period; albums such as Weekend In LA, In Flight, Breezin, Living Inside Your Love and some of his earlier stuff too Live at Carnegie Hall. All great stuff. He did a great record with Jimmy Smith in the early 80's where he absolutely floored me on a blues; Off the Top. To me his playing has the most amazing time feel, big soul, glorious choice of notes and melody as well as serious burn factor...in other words, he has it ALL. And he can hear and sing everything he plays with pin point musicality ...

Benson just doesn't do much for me. He can play great, but his music is terrible and bores the living hell out of me. As I said, if I can't connect to the songs, then I can't connect to the players. Like many sellout jazz musicians, he puts himself first and the actual music second.

[Mirror Image]

I can't imagine a serious player not connecting with either. They're both really exceptional ... you may hear this later in life if you give them another try. Believe me.

As I said, which apparently you didn't understand, I don't like either of these players. I connect with whatever I connect with and Krantz and Topping aren't players I connect with. Do you understand now?

Wow you're way off on that assessment - his jazz-rock blues playing is fucking killer, brilliant arrangements and tunes. Great players on his solo albums too.

I believe the only one off is you, James. You just can't accept that I have a different opinion than you do, can you? Well I do and my opinion of Henderson still stands.

You should check out some of those albums I mentioned, it'll be a major wake up call.

I've heard a lot of Benson albums (from Cookin' to Breezin' to White Rabbit), and, as I told you, I don't like his music. Should I use all caps so you can read my opinion of Benson again?

[Mirror Image]

No I read it ... you have your opinions and it's ok to feel this way but ,., i'm thinking you just 'can't hear' how good that stuff actually is or your just 'in a mood' or something ... because the truth is - with your opinion or not - it's still  really fantastic music making.

And it's just your opinion that it's "fantastic music-making." I like jazz music that is more harmonically adventurous, but in an artful and creative way, not in a "look what I can do" way. I have grown damn tired of fusion in general. It doesn't do much for me anymore. Big band, on the other hand, I adore and I dig bebop and some farther out avant-garde stuff.

The bottom line is you have your favorites and I have mine. As I said, my opinions were formed years ago. I know what I like, I know what I'm looking for in the music, and none of the players you mentioned (Benson, Krantz, Topping) are that interesting to me, but this shouldn't mean that I don't think they're great players, because that's not what I'm saying at all. I simply don't connect with the music they make.

Let me also say that just because YOU like and think it is great, doesn't mean somebody else shares the same opinion and if they don't, then they're not wrong for disagreeing. Your implications that you somehow think that you're right about the guitarists you're talking about are immature and is, quite frankly, the wrong attitude to have.