Make a Jazz Noise Here

[jowcol]

But it's the commonality of qualities on a basic level (I assume you mean musical characteristics) that help give rise to the labels/categories. A characteristic trait of what we call Baroque music, for example, is the basso continuo. Swing feel is one part of what leads to the conceptual category of jazz. The danger is when someone takes those traits or definitions too rigidly and says that jazz must swing, or music isn't Baroque if there's no continuo, which would lead to silly situations. It's a question of family resemblances (a la Wittgenstein), not rigid dichotomies.

You regularly employ tags like "higher consciousness music" or "art music." Are you not contradicting your own admonition? And what are the basic musical qualities that define these categories?

Some potential problems with discussing music without labels and focusing solely on its musical qualities:

a) Most people don't have the musical knowledge/experience to perceive, analyze, and discuss (or judge) music on a nuts-and-bolts level. "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen." Whereof one cannot speak, one must be silent.
b) To judge, you have to privilege certain elements or techniques; how do you decide? Plus, musical interpretation is just that: interpretation. For example, one person might analyze a chord progression one way, with someone else offering a different valid interpretation.

Wittgenstein!  Very good. 

I agree one can talk about basic qualities-- but the sticking point is that they are subjective, and people can't agree on what they are.   Which is okay when one talks about one's own perceptions, but even finding a majority who would agree on what "higher conscioussness" music is would be unlikely.  (I've spend more time than I'd like to admit in the company of Deadheads, okay?)  So, this approach is fine when talking about ourselves, but a pretty unreliable yardstick to assess the opinions and preferences of others.

[Grazioso]

Pharaoh Sanders is so far out it is pretty horrifying-- he makes Trane's playing seem rather tame.  When he comes in, he simply unleashes a torrent of wild, tortured animal sounds and screams through his sax.

I'm reminded somewhat of the Ayler brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ql3TPyFiIlM

[jowcol]

Nah .. this is unnecessary and doesnt work, because we place restrictions on things, attach stigmas to things, neatly try to compartmentalize things ..  and anything that doesn't fit creates confusion. Where do we put it? etc. Not to mention the amount of effort put into this kind of thinking, it's a big waste of time. Musicians don't waste their time mulling over such bullshit. They simply create the music.

The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.

[Mirror Image]

For some reason, I've been in need of Late Trane. 

For some reason, I really like what my be Coltrane's most reviled work-- OM.  Supposedly, he was dropping acid during the session, and "perceived the interrelationship of all life forms."  It starts with a chant from the Bagavhad Gita, and is pretty much a fluid free jam with totally off the hook solos and periods of texture that finally comes back to the orginal chant.  Pharaoh Sanders is so far out it is pretty horrifying-- he makes Trane's playing seem rather tame.  When he comes in, he simply unleashes a torrent of wild, tortured animal sounds and screams through his sax.

I originally hated this-- it was my second Trane album, and not what I expect. However, I got really sick with a 103 degree fever and the music kept playing in my head.  I'm not sure if I'd call it higher consciousness music-- it's more visceral and primeval to me, but I love it now.

Anyway, the following link covers the first half of the album.  The handoff from Trane's solo starts around 7:15, and the "Scream" comes about a minute later.
http://www.youtube.com/v/WyXFBohVmr8&page#t=438s


Probably the most accessible Late Trane came from the same time.  Kulu Se Mama used two african percussionists and a vocalists.  It's more lyrical-- although there is still some overblowing and craziness going on, but wrapped around a driving pulse.   This was also probably the best McCoy Tyner solo in the late works-- he left soon afterword, as there didn't seem to be much room for him in works like Ascension  or Meditations.  But the Kulu Se Mama has a solid piano solo if you like McCoy.  (And for me, the biggest reason I listen to Trane is to here the dialog between McCoy and Elvin-- it took me a while to start paying attention to Trane's solos.)   For some reason there doesn't seem to be a post on Youtube. Bummer.

I can't say I'm a big fan of Coltrane in general. He did some good albums in my view early on like with Ballads, Crescent, Coltrane, Blue Train, Coltrane's Sound, and some those Prestige albums like Lush Life and Black Pearls. I find his later recordings to be not my cup of tea. Jazz, for me, needs to swing, which is why I favor the late 40s, 50s, and early to mid 60s bebop, hard-bop, and cool jazz.

Give me Sonny Rollins, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Hank Mobley, Richie Kamuca, Lee Konitz, Benny Golson, Harold Land, among others any day over Coltrane.

[Mirror Image]

Currently listening to this classic Horace Silver album:



This is Silver's classic quintet with Blue Mitchell on trumpet, Junior Cook on tenor saxophone, Gene Taylor on bass, and Louis Hayes on drums.

[Mirror Image]

Listening to more Horace Silver:

[asin]B0001CLZP6[/asin]

A great album.

Joe Henderson - tenor saxophone
Woody Shaw - trumpet (a criminally underrated trumpeter in my book)
Bob Cranshaw - bass
Roger Humphries - drums

[Mirror Image]

Now listening:

[asin]B00005B58Y[/asin]

Not one of my favorite Miles albums. In fact, it's not even in my top 15 favorite Miles albums, but the title track Milestones is great.

[Mirror Image]

Now here's a Miles album I really have enjoyed through the years...

[Grazioso]

Nah .. this is unnecessary and doesnt work, because we place restrictions on things, attach stigmas to things, neatly try to compartmentalize things ..  and anything that doesn't fit creates confusion. Where do we put it? etc. Not to mention the amount of effort put into this kind of thinking, it's a big waste of time. Musicians don't waste their time mulling over such bullshit. They simply create the music.

I'm curious: are you a professional musician, or do you work with them? You sound like the rep for some Higher Consciousness Musicians Union since you're always speaking on their behalf and telling us how they work 

Now, to your points:

"Nah .. this is unnecessary and doesnt work, because we place restrictions on things, attach stigmas to things, neatly try to compartmentalize things"

Like calling some music "art music" and stigmatizing jazz or film music?

"anything that doesn't fit creates confusion."

It might create confusion in those unwilling to study the situation or rethink their assumptions. Are categories prescriptive or descriptive?

"Not to mention the amount of effort put into this kind of thinking, it's a big waste of time."

Cat's out of the bag: thinking is a waste of time--for certain people.

"Musicians don't waste their time mulling over such bullshit. They simply create the music."

I think you'd be surprised how thoughtful--or polemical--musicians can be when it comes to considering musical categories and definitions. Ever hear of Schoenberg? Or Bill Evans, who is apparently thinking by accident here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/sYXB6pQvJcg

What he says around 5:40 is advice you may want to consider.

[karlhenning]

Cat's out of the bag: thinking is a waste of time--for certain people.

QFT

[Grazioso]

The key to subliminal programming is repetition.

The Inferno, or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Pfft

Midway upon the journey of our life
  I found myself within a music store dark,
  For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

While I was rushing headlong to the jazz section,
  Before mine eyes did one present himself,
  Who seemed from long-continued cliches hoarse.

When I beheld him among the soundtracks vast,
  "Have pity on me," unto him I cried,
  "Whiche'er thou art, shade or real man!"

He answered me: "Pfft! Whatever dood!
  No more narrow jazz or pastiche film music--
  Higher consciousness music for you, pal."
 
Thunderstruck, I heard the Great Call,
  The Pfft ringing forth in tones sublime,
  Proclaiming the wisdom of Ignorance.

To think no more and place cherished opinion
  Highest among all earthly things--
  At last I gots me an arts edumucation!

[Grazioso]

Currently listening to this classic Horace Silver album:

Great stuff. Speaking of Silver, you may dig these classics:



The run-up to the Jazz Messengers, with Brownie, no less.

[Grazioso]

Now listening:

[asin]B00005B58Y[/asin]

Not one of my favorite Miles albums. In fact, it's not even in my top 15 favorite Miles albums, but the title track Milestones is great.

One of my first jazz albums. I need to pull it out again. I'm more of a Second Great Quintet guy: some crazy-good albums like E.S.P. and Miles Smiles. I dig the tension between the slightly cryptic, shadowy, introspective compositions and Miles's characteristic reticence on the one hand, and Williams's churning drumming on the other. And I bow before Shorter and Hancock, who both wrote/played some amazing music around that time.

[jowcol]

I can't say I'm a big fan of Coltrane in general. He did some good albums in my view early on like with Ballads, Crescent, Coltrane, Blue Train, Coltrane's Sound, and some those Prestige albums like Lush Life and Black Pearls. I find his later recordings to be not my cup of tea. Jazz, for me, needs to swing, which is why I favor the late 40s, 50s, and early to mid 60s bebop, hard-bop, and cool jazz.

Give me Sonny Rollins, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Hank Mobley, Richie Kamuca, Lee Konitz, Benny Golson, Harold Land, among others any day over Coltrane.

As they say, YMMV (your  mileage my vary)  It seems like you know what you are looking for, and that is truly the most important thing.

For me, the "classic quartet" from 1960-64 is my very favorite sound Jazz has to offer-- MFT, Africa-Brass, Ole, Live at Birdland, etc are stuff I never tire of.  (And I have a majority of the live stuff from the tours during that period-- bootleg and commercial. )  Crescent comes from that period.  But, as I said earlier, what really gets me is the rhythm section-- many times I get lost in that, spinning out my own lines,  and don't really pay attention to Trane's soloing. 

You mentioned "Coltrane" -- is that the 62 release? (Blue cover, has "out of this world") -- a fine album.

His late works I need to be in the mood for- doesn't happen all the time. For his earlier stuff, it's hit or miss with me, although Blue Train is great, and Giant Steps is pretty highly regarded.   The song Coltrane's Sound has Equinox, which I adore.  That album may have had an "earlier" feel, but it was basically scraps form the early Altantic recording sessions in 1960 that produced Coltrane Plays the Blues and MFT.

Once again, YMMV. 

[jowcol]

Now listening:

[asin]B00005B58Y[/asin]

Not one of my favorite Miles albums. In fact, it's not even in my top 15 favorite Miles albums, but the title track Milestones is great.

I like Dr. Jackyll-- even though the piano is underwhelming-- since Miles ticked off the pianist (Red Garland? need to check) and took over that role.

[jowcol]

Now here's a Miles album I really have enjoyed through the years...

You've heard Sketches of Spain and Porgy and Bess? (The other Gil Evans collaborations- I'm not fully including Quiet nights)

Of all of them, Sketches of Spain gets me the most.

[jowcol]

Talk is cheap .. look at the musical results instead.

Or possibly listening would be more effective than looking?

[jowcol]

The Inferno, or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Pfft

Midway upon the journey of our life
  I found myself within a music store dark,
  For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

While I was rushing headlong to the jazz section,
  Before mine eyes did one present himself,
  Who seemed from long-continued cliches hoarse.

When I beheld him among the soundtracks vast,
  "Have pity on me," unto him I cried,
  "Whiche'er thou art, shade or real man!"

He answered me: "Pfft! Whatever dood!
  No more narrow jazz or pastiche film music--
  Higher consciousness music for you, pal."
 
Thunderstruck, I heard the Great Call,
  The Pfft ringing forth in tones sublime,
  Proclaiming the wisdom of Ignorance.

To think no more and place cherished opinion
  Highest among all earthly things--
  At last I gots me an arts edumucation!

Well, you will need to make this a trilogy, where the Inferno takes you through the 9 levels of Hell (Film music on 9th level), then the Purgatory (GMG Board) and finally Paradise, and I think you can guess what it would be like.

[escher]

Hard one.

Not considering boots:

For sure Nefertiti (this period, 1965-68 is my favorite so any of those records will do but the track Nefertiti is so great I must mention it),

do you know Lee Morgan's Procrastinator? It's from the same period and there are two of the very best compositions Shorter ever wrote in my opinion, especially Dear sir, and the sound is very similar

[asin]B0000006BU[/asin]

another album i like, Rapture and Everything is changed are two great ballads

[escher]

Thinking of Mal Waldron, reminded me of Matthew Shipp, a pianist born in 1960 who makes some of the most creative new jazz today.

I don't think i have listened yet to an entire album of Shipp, what's your favorite of him?