Make a Jazz Noise Here

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i have to say that i find too similarities, but not because of Miles but because Marsalis is a great admirer of Wayne Shorter as a composer and on Black code he tried to write something in a similar vein. The problem is that as a composer WM is not on the same level with Shorter, and there's not a piece of the caliber of a Footprints or Nefertiti, Pinocchio, Sanctuary, esp, prince of darness and the other great tunes Shorter wrote for the group.

Not many are on the same level as Shorter. Everybody with ears will know this. I enjoyed Black Codes and many other people consider one of Wynton's finest moments and it's hard for me to disagree.

[escher]

Not many are on the same level as Shorter. Everybody with ears will know this. I enjoyed Black Codes and many other people consider one of Wynton's finest moments and it's hard for me to disagree.

i will listen to it again, i promise 
But i have nothing against Black codes, i remember that i was a bit disappointed maybe because my expectations were different, but as i've said i don't consider it a bad album at all

[escher]

And that is one of problems with "jazz" & popular music in general .. it totally lacks good song writing. That's why i love a group like Weather Report at it's peak, that band had it all without reverting to cliches .. it's more fresh & modern.

I swear that it's not a comment against you in any way, but though i'm a great wayne shorter admirer, i'm never been a great fan of WR. I don't know well their later stuff, but it seems to me that it was a creature of Zawinul a lot more than Shorter. About the songwriting, i think (or at least, it seems to me) that it's true for a lot of jazz after the eighties (though there is Cedar Walton who is a good songwriter for sure). But before there were a lot of great writers of tunes

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But i have nothing against Black codes, i remember that i was a bit disappointed maybe because my expectations were different

Perhaps this is apart of the problem. You're going in with some kind of preconceived notion instead of letting the music speak to you at that moment. Black Codes is, in my opinion, one of the strongest 80s jazz albums.

Since we're talking about 80s jazz, what do you think about Bill Frisell? He was doing some pretty wild stuff in this decade from playing with John Zorn and Paul Motian to forming his own group with Joey Baron on drums, Hank Roberts on cello, and Kermit Driscoll on bass.

[escher]

Perhaps this is apart of the problem. You're going in with some kind of preconceived notion instead of letting the music speak to you at that moment. Black Codes is, in my opinion, one of the strongest 80s jazz albums.

Since we're talking about 80s jazz, what do you think about Bill Frisell? He was doing some pretty wild stuff in this decade from playing with John Zorn and Paul Motian to forming his own group with Joey Baron on drums, Hank Roberts on cello, and Kermit Driscoll on bass.

i've listened to some of his album but many years ago (i remember "In line", "before we were born" and "have a little faith" and some other) and at that time those albums didn't impress me too much, but actually i've not a real formed opinion of him.

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Paths, Prints
Jan Garbarek



More News for Lulu
Bill Frisell



Night
John Abercrombie

All of these are very good indeed. I'm not a big Michael Brecker fan, but Abercrombie's Night was quite a good. I've been a fan of Jan Garbarek for quite some time. I think I own every recording he put out. I really enjoy his work with Charlie Haden and Egberto Gismonti. One of my favorite Garbarek recordings is Rites which is a double album. Great music.

Paths, Prints features a Bill Frisell still trying to find his voice on the guitar. Back then, his sound was more subdued, but he was always inventive with his harmonies and he was a great accompanist.

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i've listened to some of his album but many years ago (i remember "In line", "before we were born" and "have a little faith" and some other) and at that time those albums didn't impress me too much, but actually i've not a real formed opinion of him.

I never was too impressed with Frisell's early ECM output as a leader. His early 90s Nonesuch albums such as: Where in the World?, Have A Little Faith, and This Land remain my favorites of Frisell as a leader.

[Grazioso]

And that is one of problems with "jazz" & popular music in general .. it totally lacks good song writing. That's why i love a group like Weather Report at it's peak, that band had it all without reverting to cliches .. it's more fresh & modern.

Um, ok. Jazz and popular music lack good song writing (?!)--except for Weather Report, with its fresh and modern 1970's sound

Perhaps this is apart of the problem. You're going in with some kind of preconceived notion instead of letting the music speak to you at that moment. Black Codes is, in my opinion, one of the strongest 80s jazz albums.

Check out Live at Blues Alley, too.

Great 1980s jazz :

Standards, Vol. 1 & 2
Keith Jarrett Trio



The Keith Jarrett Standards Trio, with Jack DeJohnette and Gary Peacock began in 1983 with this CD.  They have remained together released a huge body of music that almost entirely covers the Great American Songbook of standards from the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.  One of the great piano trios of jazz.

FYI: the first two standards albums can be had as part of a box set. An unfortunate downside to the Jarrett recordings: he's one of the most notorious sub-vocalizing pianists, with a uniquely grating set of whines and groans accompanying a lot of his playing.

[escher]

It's always been a problem really tho, very few have it all in place, let alone enough to maintain it .. this is one of the reasons why we're now getting albums listed instead of actual songs like you requested.

No, i don't think so. Jazz in the period of standards was a different thing from that point of view. There were not only Ellington, Monk, Shorter, Hill, nichols, silver, bud powell, benny golson, tadd dameron, gillespie, cal massey, ornette coleman, joe henderson, and many many others, but also gershwin, alec wilder, richard rodgers, cole porter, vernon duke, jobim, arthur schwartz,  hugh martin, earl zindars, and many other professional songwriters (often musicians with classical studies, by the way). After the sixties when Rock music replaced the american songbook, a lot of jazz musicians started to wrote the tunes by themselves (i think it was also an economic move, because of the authors' rights). And they were not at the same level of the previous generation of musicians.
And for those who were playing free or electric jazz (and commercial fusion) to write a great tune was not the first target.
There is a site dedicated to the jazz standards, with all standards divided for decades: if you take a look, you can see that after the sixties the number of standard is incredibly low.

[escher]

Actually, I agree that songs are not important in jazz as much in other forms of music but I don't see that as a defect but as an indication that jazz is more about the performance and the chemistry of a particular group of musicians.  Almost any song on most of these albums highlight the strengths of a band, or leader's conception so it is not important to list one song above the others, IMO.   This is not to say that some musicians like Wayne Shorter have not written some great tunes, but even with those tunes, the real music is in the band's collective performance and the tune serves as a frame for the improvisations.

The composed part of a jazz performance is the lest important, IMO - it is what the musicians do with the song that creates the music that jazz is defined by.  To the extent a jazz group uses complicated arrangements and written music, I feel they undermine the jazz aspect of their performance.  This is why I've not liked fusion bands so much.

i don't think that the compositional aspect is secondary. Withouth a good tune with interesting chords, it's a lot more difficult to sound interesting

[escher]

A great jazz performance using nothing more than 12 bar blues is often the case - the compositional aspect is very much secondary.

yes, that's true, but jazz is not only blues and Ellington, Mingus, Monk, Hill, Shorter are not famous just for their improvisations on 12 bar standard blues. Even Ornette, who is considered the father of free jazz was actually a great writer of tunes...

[escher]

All those musicians are "famous" because of their playing as well as the bands and music they made.  However, Monk, Mingus, Hill, Shorter and even Ellington almost entirely wrote their songs as vehicles for improvisation and not to be stand alone compositions.

Yes it's clear, i wasn't saying that the compositional aspect is more important than improvisation. I was just saying that for me is not just a detail at all: Ellington is famous because he was a composer, not because he was the greatest pianist, and there were other orchestras with great soloists. 

[Grazioso]

Yeh, there's some stuff about KJ that one must ignore in order to enjoy the music.  One other thing he does on his live recordings is leave in all the applause between tracks (on a recent live 2-disc set there's about 20 minutes of applause in total), because he thinks it has musical significance.

I wonder if Pro Tools has an Ego Remover button? 

Good pt. escher, I agree. It's of paramount importance. This is one of the major reasons why we remember Monk. But it's all quite a narrow affair ultimately ..

It's ephemeral in nature  .. and actually, songs are of paramount importance ,  .. it's a shame that so much of it has lost it's way and has strayed off into a form of self-indulgent noodling. And having great songs is what separates the best jazz/popular music from the rest.

It wasn't/isn't always that way, and you have a false & narrow perception. "Fusion" is a meaningless term too, again.

Jazz and popular music lack good songwriting, except for Weather Report. Oh, and Monk. But they're both narrow. And it's great songs that separate good jazz and pop from the rest, but jazz and popular music lack good songwriting, so Weather Report is not good, but they are, and so is Monk, but he's not, and... [Space-Time Continuum implodes]

Anyway, I think I am somewhat in agreement with James [Space-Time Continuum explodes back outward, creating a new universe], in that I most enjoy jazz that combines interesting writing with interesting improvisation, and I tend to most appreciate jazz performers who are also good writers. I hear writing and improv as natural outgrowths of each other.

That Bill Evans interview I linked earlier is very apropos to the current discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/v/sYXB6pQvJcg

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There is more music in Tenor Madness with Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane playing over blues changes than everything Weather Report did.

A agree with this. I generally dislike the whole fusion movement in jazz. Like I said in an earlier post, fusion was created as just an excuse for jazz musicians not to swing.

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Leon, there's no use arguing with James about jazz. The guy clearly doesn't understand what jazz is all about. Jazz is about improvisation period. Without improvisation it is not jazz. If a jazz musician can't improvise and swing then he's not a jazz musician.

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I agree that jazz is ephemeral - but instead of seeing this as a limitation I see it as a definitive aspect. 

Jazz happens in a performance, live, not frozen on a recording, in fact, I will go further and say that jazz only happens live and what is recorded is to the music what a snapshot is to a person - surely a huge difference.  There is no score of the music, each night is different, each performance of a song is unique - that is the whole point: to not freeze it.

To not understand this is to misunderstand what jazz is at its core.

Exactly, jazz is improvisation. Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't understand jazz.

[Grazioso]

And despite all that .. it's nothing unique and new really, throughout history improvising with song form or more elaborate forms & materials occurred all the time ..  jazz is captured on tape, but it is ephemera as music and not built to last. Jazz is just essentially a form of popular music that works with simple song forms and simpler harmonies and textures. What was done in earlier times was far more advanced & lasting ..

I'm wondering what makes you say "simpler harmonies."

[Grazioso]

What about the 90s up to the present?

"The Impaler" by Jeff "Tain" Watts on



Tain is a major drummer, who rose to prominence with the Marsalis bros. This cut is often held up as an example--even by detractors--of Wynton Marsalis really nailing a solo.

Most of the album is top-notch: turns out Tain is also a good writer, offering up some very catchy up-tempo themes and beautiful ballads. Branford Marsalis turns in some imaginative playing. The only downsides are that the bass is buried in the mix (Note to producers/engineers: the bass is an instrument that plays notes--it's not just there to make a vague thump), and that Tain's drumming is so distinctive and strong that it sometimes overpowers what Kenny Kirkland is playing.

[Grazioso]

Without strong compositional chops all the noodling in the world is a nonstarter, and the music won't amount to much. The

Why the derogatory "noodling"? You make it sound as if improvisation is just random notes without thought or skill or imagination. Someone who hears improvisation as mere "noodling" is someone without musical knowledge or experience.

with! So from the ground up, the music has more to it. I don't care who it is, listening to the same instrument combos, 12-bar blues, traditional vocab, be-bop cliches & formats or modal jams gets stagnant & old fast. Breadth & variety in composition is required to keep things really interesting, even within the constraints that the music often works within.

It sounds more like you're saying you get bored easily than commenting on anything about music per se.

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Arguing with James is futile. It's pointless. It goes nowhere. He's right and we're all wrong. The end.

P.S. I don't give a damn what James thinks about music. He has proven time and time again just how ignorant he is and this current display of rhetoric is only further proof of this notion.