Greatest 20th Century Symphonies

[vandermolen]

Am I alone in finding Stravinskys Symphony of Psalms his greatest symphony? Or don't we accept it as a symphony?

I would agree with this. I am not a huge fan of Stravinsky but the Symphons of Psalms is beautiful.

My new discovery: Stale Kleiberg: Symphony No 1 'The Bell Reef' - great work.

[eyeresist]

Agree about Prokofiev No 3. What's wrong with finale of VW No 9? I know that Boult asked him to add some music as he found the end abrupt, but I think that the first and last movement are towering achievements - it is a great score - would add Brian Symphony No 8, Moeran Symphony, Tubin No 4 (now I am subverting my own rules - never mind).

I knew that Boult had made suggestions, but didn't know what they were! The abruptness of the ending is the big problem, but I also find the structure of the movement a bit diffuse, when RVW is usually so clear-cut. Still a major achievement of course - I am listening to Previn approach the final bars as we speak...

Regarding Brain, Moeran and Tubin, I can only lament my policy of refusing to pay more than a certain amount for any one CD. On the other hand, there's still so much music to explore for cheap. I just took delivery of a big shipment of music by Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Hindemith, and Khachaturian, totalling 16 CDs of music I've never heard before

[Lethevich]

Yes, where and when would have Shostakovich encountered the Elgar First outside of perusing a score?

I know he was allowed occasionally to visit the West: during which visit might this have happened?

I think that Elgar's first (like Vaughan Williams' sixth) experienced one of those runaway successes which are swiftly forgotten about later on due to them ending quite quickly. I recall from somewhere (helpful, I know! ) that the 1st (in marked opposition to the 2nd's fate) was heard in quite a few European cities before the composer rapidly became perceived as being outdated - there is a small chance that DSCH could've even heard it in Russia during that time.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Regarding Brain, Moeran and Tubin, I can only lament my policy of refusing to pay more than a certain amount for any one CD.

Brain's Eighth will cost you nothing...  

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian 8.mp3

[karlhenning]

Brain's Eighth will cost you nothing...  

Abby . . . Abby somebody.

[DavidRoss]

Regarding Brain, Moeran and Tubin, I can only lament my policy of refusing to pay more than a certain amount for any one CD. On the other hand, there's still so much music to explore for cheap. I just took delivery of a big shipment of music by Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Hindemith, and Khachaturian, totalling 16 CDs of music I've never heard before

Pretty good fellows to risk it on.  Moeran's Symphony in G minor is a no-brainer, and there are several inexpensive recordings available such as the Lloyd-Jones disc on Naxos.

[Dundonnell]

Not to be confused with the Norwegian composer Edvard Fiflet Braein, composer of three symphonies

[Lethevich]

RVW, 5th Symphony

Interesting turnaround

Bax, 1st Symphony

I wish that Bax produced a symphony that radiates "greatness" just a little more strongly than any of them actually do... Several of them threaten to achieve such status, with the 6th to me seeming like the best candidate (and Vernon Handley seems to agree), but there is something unfathomably oh-so flawed about them all, just like all of the other mature works - I'm not sure that it would have much of an audience due to the patience they require. The 3rd and 6th have some kind of drive, but the 5th is almost comfortable, and the 7th is such a take-it-or-leave-it work. The 1st is the least languorous, but also the least Bax. It's a very good listen, though - kind of reminds me of Honegger's atypical and spikey first.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Interesting turnaround

Well-spotted, Sarah! I have struggled so long with this work, now it has 'clicked' I regard it as RVW's 'deepest' symphony (which doesn't mean I don't love all the others!)

I wish that Bax produced a symphony that radiates "greatness" just a little more strongly than any of them actually do... Several of them threaten to achieve such status, with the 6th to me seeming like the best candidate (and Vernon Handley seems to agree), but there is something unfathomably oh-so flawed about them all, just like all of the other mature works - I'm not sure that it would have much of an audience due to the patience they require. The 3rd and 6th have some kind of drive, but the 5th is almost comfortable, and the 7th is such a take-it-or-leave-it work. The 1st is the least languorous, but also the least Bax. It's a very good listen, though - kind of reminds me of Honegger's atypical and spikey first.

Seeming indeed - the opening is epic, but the great climax in the finale fails to attain the definitive.

I think the point with Bax is he is simply not interested in Beethovenian logic and inexoribility. He writes symphonic ballads, romances. His symphonies are evocative, poetic, atmospheric, and as such highly succesful. But he doesn't 'clinch' a thing. Only the First does.

[Dundonnell]

You(Lethe and Jezetha) are both very perceptive

[vandermolen]

I knew that Boult had made suggestions, but didn't know what they were! The abruptness of the ending is the big problem, but I also find the structure of the movement a bit diffuse, when RVW is usually so clear-cut. Still a major achievement of course - I am listening to Previn approach the final bars as we speak...

Regarding Brain, Moeran and Tubin, I can only lament my policy of refusing to pay more than a certain amount for any one CD. On the other hand, there's still so much music to explore for cheap. I just took delivery of a big shipment of music by Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Hindemith, and Khachaturian, totalling 16 CDs of music I've never heard before

Thanks. The end of No 9 works for me - it's abruptness seems right in context but I am no musicologist - it is a gaunt craggy work, which I love. The Stokowski recording on Cala is now my favourite version.  Moeran's Symphony and Sinfonietta are coupled together on Naxos - so, not expensive and these are servicable performances worth exploring. Brian's 'Gothic' is also on Naxos (2CDs).

[Lilas Pastia]

Although I have my own favourites as contenders for this thread, it seems to me that many composers achieved more with their symphonic corpus as a whole than the individual components within (same thing with all these formidable 20th Century string quartet series).

The names of Alwyn, Koppel, Simpson, Rubbra, Arnold, Sauguet, Tournemire, Orthel, Langgaard, Norholm, Pettersson, Rautavaara, Aho, Bax,  Jones and many others would be more readily discussed. But that's the subject of another thread .

[Christo]

Mahler, 6th Symphony
Sibelius, 4th Symphony
Brian, 1st Symphony, 'Gothic'
RVW, 5th Symphony
Harris, 3rd Symphony
Pettersson, 15th Symphony
Nielsen, 6th Symphony
Elgar, 1st Symphony
Stravinsky, Symphony in Three Movements
Martinu, 5th Symphony
Tubin, 6th Symphony
Orthel, 2nd Symphony
Hartmann, 6th Symphony
Prokofiev, 6th Symphony
Shostakovich, 4th Symphony
Honegger, 3rd Symphony
Bax, 1st Symphony
Moeran, Symphony in G minor
and the list goes on...

But still no Langgaard? Not surprisingly, perhaps, my own list would be almost identical - with the exception of Petterson 15, Hartmann 6 and Bax 1, symphonies that I didn't play enough, and Elgar 1 (that I don't care about that much ). And I would add some that were not mentioned in this thread before, I think, like:

Holmboe 6, 8, 9
Simpson 9
Vermeulen 2

... and of course Vaughan Williams 3, 6, 8, 9  
and many more, especially from Lilas Pastia's list of composers to which I would other symphonists like Saygun, Guarnieri, Lennox Berkeley, Goossens, Wordsworth, Braga Santos, Pijper, Diamond, Barber, Irgens-Jensen

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Although I have my own favourites as contenders for this thread, it seems to me that many composers achieved more with their symphonic corpus as a whole than the individual components within (same thing with all these formidable 20th Century string quartet series).

The names of Alwyn, Koppel, Simpson, Rubbra, Arnold, Sauguet, Tournemire, Orthel, Langgaard, Norholm, Pettersson, Rautavaara, Aho, Bax,  Jones and many others would be more readily discussed. But that's the subject of another thread .

Wholly agree. That's why

But still no Langgaard?

I didn't include Langgaard, because I don't think any of his symphonies is his all-out masterpiece, though his greatness is apparent in every one of them, to a more or lesser degree. Even in the nationalist and rather 'reactionary', backward-looking symphonies like 7, 8 and 9 there are wonderful mo(ve)ments.

O, thanks to Christo I MUST add Simpson's 9th, one of the greatest of the century (how could I forget?!?), and Vermeulen's 2nd.

But Jeffrey has set us an impossible task. I like the historical underpinning of his 'only three', but the whole concept of '3 greatest' is completely unworkable! 

[val]

I believe that the three most perfect and deep Symphonies composed in the 20th century are:

Sibelius 4th

Roussel 3rd

Webern's Symphony opus 21

[snyprrr]

REVISED:

Pettersson 6
Pettersson 9 or 13
Simpson 9

No more!

[vandermolen]

But Jeffrey has set us an impossible task. I like the historical underpinning of his 'only three', but the whole concept of '3 greatest' is completely unworkable! 

I believe that the three most perfect and deep Symphonies composed in the 20th century are:

Sibelius 4th

Roussel 3rd

Webern's Symphony opus 21

hehe 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

hehe 

Don't laugh. You can't restrict yourself to the three greatest either, otherwise no Advanced Smuggling Techniques To Bypass Suspicious Spouses would have been necessary... 

[Christo]

I believe that the three most perfect and deep Symphonies composed in the 20th century are:

Sibelius 4th
Roussel 3rd
Webern's Symphony opus 21

Oh? Are we supposed to name only three symphonies? And are they really supposed to be "deep" - whatever that may mean? In that case, my shortlist might be:

Vaughan Williams 3 `A Pastoral'
Vaughan Williams 5
Vaughan Williams 6

Or a non-RVW list:

Nielsen 5
Tubin 6
Holmboe 8

Or a not-to-Northern shortlist:

Vermeulen 2
Brian 1 `Gothic'
Simpson 9

Or an even-more-Latin shortlist:

Honegger 3
Braga Santos 3
Guarnieri 3

Which only makes twelve in total 

[vandermolen]

Don't laugh. You can't restrict yourself to the three greatest either, otherwise no Advanced Smuggling Techniques To Bypass Suspicious Spouses would have been necessary... 

Yes, a fair point I guess 

I am puzzling where to locate Braga Santos's 4th Symphony in all this.  It is certainly a favourite - but is it 'great'? I think so