Greatest 20th Century Symphonies

[DavidW]

I think I should give Messiaen another chance. I think I sampled some of his organ music too but I found it extremely slow, tiresome and boring. Messiaen doesn't seem to be a master of rhythm, is he?

I think he's hit and miss.  I like Quartet for the End of Time.  I think Messiaen is polarizing, fanatics find his music to be deeply stirring, and everyone else thinks it's tiresome!

[ChamberNut]

I think he's hit and miss.  I like Quartet for the End of Time.  I think Messiaen is polarizing, fanatics find his music to be deeply stirring, and everyone else thinks it's tiresome!

See, I love the Quartet for the End of Time.  The Turang. Symphony is definitely different.....a unique work for sure.

[ChamberNut]

Wonder if there is a thread on composers that are "Who you think are the most polarizing composers?" I'm sure Wagner and Messiaen would both rank high on that list.    I'm thinking Debussy and Schoenberg as others too.  And dare I say it......Beethoven! 

[The new erato]

Well, I don't know about a "tiresome mess of random noises," but I do know a number of Messiaen fans who find that piece a little too--trying to find the right word--"obvious."  A lot of his music may have more mystery. 

I've heard the Turangalila live -twice - and while parts of it are exhilarating, there is far too much repetition and what to me seems like aimless noise (and I'm not adverse to noise). The problem with Messiaen to me, is that his mysterious music to me is simply dull. Aimlessly unstructured and plain dull.  That doesn't leave much. I'm guessed I'm not cut out for meditative mystery, chanting ooooooommmmmmmmmmmm   for hours.

And I have the 32 CD DG box.......

[DavidW]

Wonder if there is a thread on composers that are "Who you think are the most polarizing composers?" I'm sure Wagner and Messiaen would both rank high on that list.    I'm thinking Debussy and Schoenberg as others too.  And dare I say it......Beethoven! 

Let's see also Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann, Wagner, and Mahler all have drawn their share of love/hate relationships on this forum...

[schweitzeralan]

Well, can't agree with the rhythm comment, and given your reaction to his organ output, I suspect Messiaen just isn't for you.  Thankfully, there are thousands of other composers!

--Bruce

Well stated.  Messiaen will have his fans.

[Christo]

Not the greatest, perhaps. But at least the greatest symphony I `discovered' recently and keep listening to, even during my holidays in Lesbos. I mean the unjustly neglected Arnold Cooke (1906-2005) and his masterly First Symphony (1947). Its only recording dating from as long ago as 1989, only te have been released in 2007 and hardly reviewed or paid any attention to, AFAIK. Yet the most impressive `unknown' symphony I've heard in years:

               
   

[The new erato]

Only to your unadjusted ears in which it may take some time, but his music is very much-so meticulously structured, it just flows & is formed in a different manor that's quite alien to the western classical tradition.

I know, and I'm not blaiming Messiaen; but of all (presumedly) great composers, he's the one I absolutely cannot seem to get a grip on. I try, and try again, and end up getting bored to death, or getting seasick of all the (seemngly) aimlessly changing tonalites and all the frantick movement going nowhere.. I'm quite aware that there's method to the madness. "But not for me"; to quote Gershwin.

[Anglican Scholar]

Mahler 6 & 7
Stravinsky, symphony on three movements
Webern, symphony op 21
Lutoslawski, symphonies 2, 3 & 4

[Sid]

I can't understand how people are ranking Vaughan Williams' symphonies among the greatest of the century. The fact that he was eclectic is not the issue, but the way he cobbled together other composers techniques & ideas is just not funny. I can hear the influence of Beethoven, Brahms, Puccini, Ravel, Busoni, Mahler in RVW's symphonies. The worst, not the best, has to be the 6th which is a rehash of ideas from other composers. Probably the best is the monothematic 4th, which is quite direct & unaffected. Basically, I don't think RVW can be ranked along Mahler, Shostakovich, Martinu or even Bax as a great symphonist of the C20th. At best, he was just a minor composer.

[Lilas Pastia]

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. The fact that a sizable number of music lovers - and conductors - rate VW' symphonies highly indicates he has a devoted following - like Martinu, Prokofiev or Nielsen. Can't you live with that simple fact without developing an ulcer?

[ChamberNut]

The worst, not the best, has to be the 6th which is a rehash of ideas from other composers. At best, he was just a minor composer.

Both of these statements are rubbish.

[71 dB]

You haven't been listening close enough then. Rhythm is one of the unique hallmarks of his music.

Messiaen - Quatuor pour la fin des temps 6th mouvment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhOZCdevBEM

Driving Messiaen Fugue from Vingt Regards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtE0Y7wUfCQ

Messiaen - Oiseaux Exotiques - Aimard, Boulez Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht5qqE_e1UE

Thanks for the examples!

Sorry, but this music is incomprehensible to me. I'm sure Messiaen had some weird systematic methods to create his music but I perceive it all as random notes. Well, actually the first example sounds like a starting point of a work by Michael Torke who's music I enjoy but I prefer finished works.

People have different tastes or some people just don't have the required intelligence to decode certain music. Classical music can be bad for your self-esteem. It makes me feel inferior not to get Messiaen. This kind of music is dangerous when we try to lure people into the world of classical music. They will run away for good! 

[71 dB]

The fact that a sizable number of music lovers - and conductors - rate VW' symphonies highly...

This of course doesn't mean anything. Millions of people rate Madonna's music highly. I'm pretty sure VW's symphonies are greater music than Madonna's pop. 

[vandermolen]

I can't understand how people are ranking Vaughan Williams' symphonies among the greatest of the century. The fact that he was eclectic is not the issue, but the way he cobbled together other composers techniques & ideas is just not funny. I can hear the influence of Beethoven, Brahms, Puccini, Ravel, Busoni, Mahler in RVW's symphonies. The worst, not the best, has to be the 6th which is a rehash of ideas from other composers. Probably the best is the monothematic 4th, which is quite direct & unaffected. Basically, I don't think RVW can be ranked along Mahler, Shostakovich, Martinu or even Bax as a great symphonist of the C20th. At best, he was just a minor composer.

I think that either you respond to Vaughan Williams's music - or you don't.  Clearly you don't.  No composer exists in a vacuum and all are to some extent influenced by what has been written before but I feel that VW has a very distinct style - instantly recognisable after only a few bars. I don't agree that he 'cobbled together' other composers' techniques and ideas. As to his 'greatness' that is a subjective view and we need to respect the different views - but I believe that symphonies 4-6 and 9 are great works of humanity and vision. The 1913 version of A London Symphony has been a revelation too. You don't mention Sibelius whom I regard as perhaps the greatest 20th century composer.

[karlhenning]

This of course doesn't mean anything. Millions of people rate Madonna's music highly. I'm pretty sure VW's symphonies are greater music than Madonna's pop. 

Vaughan Williams would no doubt be delighted to be damned with such faint praise 

[Slezak]

  I'd have to put in a vote for Erich Wolfgang Korngold's symphony as a 20th century masterpiece.  SS

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Greatest? Favourite maybe.

In no particular order:

Pettersson 6,7
Sibelius 3 and 4
Mahler 6
Shostakovich 1,4,10

[karlhenning]

Greatest? Favourite maybe.

No love for Nielsen?

[DavidRoss]

This thread has reminded me that I need to rip some of RVW's symphonies to put on my new cell phone/mp3 player.  Let's see: how about #2 by Previn, 3 by Handley, 4 by Slatkin, 5 by Thomson?  These four I treasure--the rest I know less well.  Any suggestions as to which of the others I ought have with me at all times?  (to accompany all of Beethoven's, Mahler's, Sibelius's, Prokofiev's, and a smattering of others, like Mendelsson's 4th...one never knows when Mendelssohn's 4th may prove just the ticket for turning around a debilitating funk!)