The Failure To Recognize Mr. Carter

[Homo Aestheticus]

As most everyone here knows, Elliott Carter is considered one of the greatest composers of the last 60 years and the dean of American composers. At the same time, he hasn't exactly become a household name; there is still great resistance from the general audience towards his music. For instance, on his 100th birthday last December, WQXR, the main classical station of New York did not play a single note of his music. It is astonishing when you consider that he is a very pleasant man  and  a native New Yorker.

To put it in another perspective, if we were back in 1950 and Stravinsky or Schoenberg had died (the two probable contestants for greatest at that time) certainly we would have heard  at least one  of their works broadcast.  

Is it simply that we've become less discerning of what great music is today ?

[ChamberNut]

I voted for the first option.  I've only heard the first four string quartets.  They did not appeal to me.  I will eventually revisit them and try again.

And also sample some other works too.

[drogulus]

    What does "fail to recognize" mean? Recognition is a problem a composer might have. I never heard of a listener having it. Do I need Mr. Carter to recognize me?


     

[karlhenning]

In principle, I don't participate in polls with words like adore in the phrasing.

[Homo Aestheticus]

What does "fail to recognize" mean?

Well, I guess in this context it means to show  a modicum  of respect to a composer who just turned 100.

Is his music so mediocre that they couldn't devote a little bit of airtime to at least one of his works ?      

[karlhenning]

As most everyone here knows, Elliott Carter is considered one of the greatest composers of the last 60 years and the dean of American composers. At the same time, he hasn't exactly become a household name; there is still great resistance from the general audience towards his music. For instance, on his 100th birthday last December, WQXR, the main classical station of New York did not play a single note of his music. It is astonishing when you consider that he is a very pleasant man  and  a native New Yorker.

To put it in another perspective, if we were back in 1950 and Stravinsky or Schoenberg had died (the two probable contestants for greatest at that time) certainly we would have heard  at least one  of their works broadcast.  

Is it simply that we've become less discerning of what great music is today ?

It's simply that we live in different times, Eric.

I, for one, do not believe for an instant that, if you had lived in Debussy's time, you would have appreciated his genius.

On-topic: So, which Carter pieces have you heard, Eric?  Questions of "failing to recognize" him, are moot if you don't actually listen to the music. Aren't they?

It's simply that we live in different times, Eric.

Or it could simply be that you don't trouble to listen to his music . . . .

Is his music so mediocre that they couldn't devote a little bit of airtime to at least one of his works ?      

Listen to you!  Slinging the adjective mediocre.  What I expect to be the case, is that WQXR suffers from the same mediocrity of programming that WCRB does, driven by the desire to be the soundtrack to the waiting rooms of this nation's dentists.

Could be why they play Clair de lune all the time!

[Lethevich]

Hmm, 3 dislike options and one love - I'm afraid I simply like it...

[karlhenning]

Hmm, 3 dislike options and one love

Consider the source.

[Homo Aestheticus]

It's simply that we live in different times, Eric.

Oh, that is such a convenient excuse to roll out, isn't it ?

I, for one, do not believe for an instant that, if you had lived in Debussy's time, you would have appreciated his genius.

And where did you get that silly notion ?

On-topic: So, which Carter pieces have you heard, Eric?  

Variations for Orchestra

All of the string quartets

Boston Concerto

Sum Fluxae Pretium

......and a couple others.

[71 dB]

I don't know Carter's music (American classical music in general isn't my cup of tea with some exceptions) and I hadn't even heard about him 5 years ago. Maybe he is a big name in US but not in Finland. Sorry if that makes me fail to recognize him.

[Superhorn]

   I  would say that I've come to respect if not love Carter's music.
It certainly makes great demands on listeners, and I wouldn't recommend it to classical newbies. But the fact remains that there a quite a few who critics, composers and others who have great admiration for Carter's music. Like his music or not, you can't dismiss it lightly.
  Remember, to some listeners 200 years ago, Beethoven's music,particularly his later works, must have seemed just as incomprehensible as Carter's music is to many today. And the same has been true of composer such as Berlioz, Wagner and others composers who are part of the canon today. Who knows how posteruity will see Carter's music? There's no way to know. It would be fascinating if we could come back 100 years from now at the time of Carter's bicentennial.

[Josquin des Prez]

Remember, to some listeners 200 years ago, Beethoven's music,particularly his later works, must have seemed just as incomprehensible as Carter's music is to many today. And the same has been true of composer such as Berlioz, Wagner and others composers who are part of the canon today. Who knows how posteruity will see Carter's music? There's no way to know.

The naivety of this forum never cease to amaze. The music of late Beethoven was only incomprehensible to the philistine, which has always been the majority, then as they are now. Those who knew a thing or two about music spotted its genius right away. This is the greatest fallacy with this type of arguments. Time doesn't make a genius. If you can't see it, either you aren't fit to understand it or it simply isn't there.

[CRCulver]

I don't know Carter's music (American classical music in general isn't my cup of tea with some exceptions) and I hadn't even heard about him 5 years ago. Maybe he is a big name in US but not in Finland. Sorry if that makes me fail to recognize him.

He's well-known enough here in Finland to get a 100th anniversary concert, when the Helsinki Philharmonic played his Symphonia last year.

[71 dB]

He's well-known enough here in Finland to get a 100th anniversary concert, when the Helsinki Philharmonic played his Symphonia last year.

Yes, but it takes a 100th anniversary to get his music played.

[Joe_Campbell]

I think that's the first time I've ever seen anyone quote themselves -- from the same post!

[Joe_Campbell]

This feels like some sort of backhanded attempt to undermine Carter's music. I'm guessing the OP is intending everyone to come to some strange conclusion that, because a certain radio station didn't broadcast Carter's music on his 100th anniversary, his music is of minimal or no quality. What would the OP say if other stations were broadcasting him? Ideas like these are just a bit too inconvenient for him, I think. The fact is, Carter's music is played, even on days other than his b-day. He may never have the recognition of, say, Mozart, but that doesn't mean that he's an insignificant composer.

As JdP says, people who know music recognize good music. To even consider the notion that T.U.P. is doing anything but trying to bolster his own ill-informed, pre-determined, and un-flexible opinion of Carter's music seems as pointless as this thread.

[Homo Aestheticus]

The naivety of this forum never cease to amaze. The music of late Beethoven was only incomprehensible to the philistine, which has always been the majority, then as they are now. Those who knew a thing or two about music spotted its genius right away. This is the greatest fallacy with this type of arguments. Time doesn't make a genius. If you can't see it, either you aren't fit to understand it or it simply isn't there.

I agree but according to the scholars and critics it is you and I who are among the philistines for questioning the value/greatness of Carter's music...  After all, he has been the recipient of the highest honors a composer can receive such as the Gold Medal for Music awarded by the National Institute of Arts and Letters, the National Medal of Arts, membership in the American Academy of Arts and Letters and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and honorary degrees from many universities.... not to mention two, yes  two  Pulitzer prizes.

That is some very serious acclaim across the board.

Can the academics be that wrong about a composer ?

What is it that we are 'not getting' in Carter's music ?

[greg]

I think that's the first time I've ever seen anyone quote themselves -- from the same post!

Well, I chose that I "adore" his music, but really, there was no perfect option for me. I really like some of his music, kinda like some, don't care about some, dislike some (that i've probably only heard once), etc.

[karlhenning]

The edge, 'at's wot I am!

[karlhenning]

And where did you get that silly notion ?

I agree; the very idea that you would admire musical genius in your own lifetime, is silly, Eric.