Mozart Violin Sonatas

[Que]

For HIP fans this is not a bad idea at all:

Sigiswald Kuijken - Violin (Giovanni Grancino, Milano ca. 1700)
Luc Devos - Fortepiano (Claude Kelecom, Brussels 1978 after J.A. Stein, Augsburg 1788: disc 1-3; Brussels 2001 after J.A. Stein, Augsburg 1788: disc 4-5)

5 CDs (although the fifth one lasts just nineteen minutes), Accent, 1991-2005

When looking for a good HIP version  afew years ago I sampled this - drawn by my admiration for Kuijken.
But I passed it over being taken back a bit by the very bright sound of both istruments and what I recall as equally bright, sharply accentuated playing and also accompaniment by Devos that was very much on the foreground.

I'm curious what I would make of it these days.... Might be very interesting after all..

Q

[Herman]

In addition to the Haskil / Grumiaux I listen to the Richter / Kogan recordings.

[Antoine Marchand]

When looking for a good HIP version  afew years ago I sampled this - drawn by my admiration for Kuijken.
But I passed it over being taken back a bit by the very bright sound of both istruments and what I recall as equally bright, sharply accentuated playing and also accompaniment by Devos that was very much on the foreground.

I'm curious what I would make of it these days.... Might be very interesting after all..

Q

Some years ago my first impressions were rather similar, Que.

At first glance, I disliked the bright quality of the Kuijken's violin in these recordings. But I finally bought the complete set because of the fine playing of Luc Devos. I think his job here is really superb.

BTW, your perceptions about the role of violin in these CDs are "theorically" confirmed in the booklet: "As is indicated by the frontispiece of all the sonatas for keyboard and violin by Mozart, the compositions are truly ones in which the keyboard plays the primary role. This genre developed in France, and spread rapidly into German-speaking countries, although did not occur without a certain reticence, about all on the part of violinists. Too often, they took such pieces to be sonatas for violin, and played them with all the brio and the ornaments, frequently excessive, of a soloist, which Leopold Mozart described as been in barely "passable" taste. Generally, in their sonatas, the French composers such as Schobert and Hüllmander  -and also Joseph Schuster, a composer active in Dresden, who influenced Mozart's sonata- presented two conventional kinds of relations between the dominant keyboard and the accompanying violin. On the one hand, there could be a dialogue, in which the violin from time to time emphasized  certain motifs in a long keyboard phrase, and, on the other hand, an approach in which the violin provided a base of sound , accompanying the keyboard for long passage, in parallel melodies or supporting the keyboard with a sustained note or repeated figures. This is in contrast to the slow movements of Schuster, where the keyboard instrument accompanied the initial theme, often cantabile, presented by the violin. Mozart was clearly inspired by these sonatas, appreciating the almost equal importance given to the two instruments".

All in all, not my first choice in these pieces, but a nice set.

[dirkronk]

In addition to the Haskil / Grumiaux I listen to the Richter / Kogan recordings.

Herman, do you mean Richter and Kagan (I get Kagan and Kogan mixed up frequently, myself--slip of the keyboard and all that)...or are there ones I don't know about?

Cheers,

Dirk

[Antoine Marchand]

A Kuijken/Devos' example:


http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=2a69231

[Herman]

Sorry, yes, it's Kagan. There are other ones. My mother has a double LP with Richter and Oistrakh playing Mozart sonatas.

About the Devos / Kuijken: one thing that troubles me about some HIPsters is this dogmatic emphasis on the first beat.

[Dr. Dread]

About the Devos / Kuijken: one thing that troubles me about some HIPsters is this dogmatic emphasis on the first beat.

You probably don't know this, but the emphasis in funk music is "on the one". Them HIPsters are pretty funky, no?

[Coopmv]

You probably don't know this, but the emphasis in funk music is "on the one". Them HIPsters are pretty funky, no?

This is one of my favorites, though it is not violin sonatas and was performed on modern instruments ...

[SonicMan46]

This is one of my favorites, though it is not violin sonatas and was performed on modern instruments ...

Stuart - this thread is obviously about the Violin Sonatas; the discs below have been overwhelmingly recommended by many on this forum (I've owned these recordings myself for a while and have listened to them a number of times); they are HIP and just wonderful - if you do not have any of these performances yet or even if you have a 'modern' set, these are worth exploring - highly recommended!  Dave 

 

[Coopmv]

I do have the following Mozart violin sonatas ...

[SonicMan46]

I do have the following Mozart violin sonatas ...

Stuart - I've not heard these recordings to comment, although I do have & enjoy a lot of discs by Manze -interestingly, one of our members Jens reviewed this CD on Amazon - not sure that he has heard the recordings in question, but would be interested in his comments - hope others may offer some comparisons - Dave 

[Coopmv]

Stuart - I've not heard these recordings to comment, although I do have & enjoy a lot of discs by Manze -interestingly, one of our members Jens reviewed this CD on Amazon - not sure that he has heard the recordings in question, but would be interested in his comments - hope others may offer some comparisons - Dave 

Mozart is not exactly among the top five of my favorite composers.  As such, I definitely do not have a well-rounded collection of his works.  I may have over 100 Mozart's CD's/LP's (including a few of his operas on LP), the collection is modest compared with my Bach collection.

[Gurn Blanston]

Some years ago my first impressions were rather similar, Que.

At first glance, I disliked the bright quality of the Kuijken's violin in these recordings. But I finally bought the complete set because of the fine playing of Luc Devos. I think his job here is really superb.

BTW, your perceptions about the role of violin in these CDs are "theorically" confirmed in the booklet: "As is indicated by the frontispiece of all the sonatas for keyboard and violin by Mozart, the compositions are truly ones in which the keyboard plays the primary role. This genre developed in France, and spread rapidly into German-speaking countries, although did not occur without a certain reticence, about all on the part of violinists. Too often, they took such pieces to be sonatas for violin, and played them with all the brio and the ornaments, frequently excessive, of a soloist, which Leopold Mozart described as been in barely "passable" taste. Generally, in their sonatas, the French composers such as Schobert and Hüllmander  -and also Joseph Schuster, a composer active in Dresden, who influenced Mozart's sonata- presented two conventional kinds of relations between the dominant keyboard and the accompanying violin. On the one hand, there could be a dialogue, in which the violin from time to time emphasized  certain motifs in a long keyboard phrase, and, on the other hand, an approach in which the violin provided a base of sound , accompanying the keyboard for long passage, in parallel melodies or supporting the keyboard with a sustained note or repeated figures. This is in contrast to the slow movements of Schuster, where the keyboard instrument accompanied the initial theme, often cantabile, presented by the violin. Mozart was clearly inspired by these sonatas, appreciating the almost equal importance given to the two instruments".

All in all, not my first choice in these pieces, but a nice set.

Great post, Antoine, you should introduce this discussion at the Classical Corner. Something we would like to get into there, I think. In any case, yes, you can clearly see in Mozart's violin sonata oeuvre that he spans the stylistic tastes, from keyboard dominant (which was the prevailing taste, beyond doubt) to equal partnership, which he gets (perhaps too much) credit for implementing. But these (and most "piano trios" of the time also) were first and foremost "accompanied sonatas", and the only obligatto instrument was the keyboard. By the end of the period, that was no longer true. Even Haydn's post-1780 piano trios can no longer be fully supported by a pianist alone.



----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Cello Quintets - Smithsonian Chamber Players / Bylsma - Boccherini Quintet in f for Strings Op 11 #4 2nd mvmt - Vivace

[Que]

I do have the following Mozart violin sonatas ...

I looked into this as well when making a choice, also: Seiler/Immerseel (one disc of "Viennese Sonatas" on Zig Zag) and Podger/Cooper (complete on Channel Classics). My memories of the Manze/Egarr are less vivid than on Kuijken/Devos, must have made less of an impression! I do remember it to be a bit mannered/laboured and Manze's tone ungenerous - digging deep and playing with high tension is fine for Biber, but Mozart is another matter IMO. I missed the fun, the interplay and the charm which I find in the Rivest/Breitman. (Of the competition I liked Seiler/Immerseel best BTW.)

BTW (II): just saw the other day a interesting new issue - in my experience these might just be the right performers for these works.



Review

Q

[Que]

A Kuijken/Devos' example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=2a69231

Just for the fun of it, here is Rivest/Breitman!
And thank you for your reply, agree with Gurn: very interesting!

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/4/1562799/2-02%20Sonate%20in%20A-dur%20KV%20526%20-%20Andante.mp3[/mp3]

Q

[Antoine Marchand]

Great post, Antoine, you should introduce this discussion at the Classical Corner. Something we would like to get into there, I think. In any case, yes, you can clearly see in Mozart's violin sonata oeuvre that he spans the stylistic tastes, from keyboard dominant (which was the prevailing taste, beyond doubt) to equal partnership, which he gets (perhaps too much) credit for implementing. But these (and most "piano trios" of the time also) were first and foremost "accompanied sonatas", and the only obligatto instrument was the keyboard. By the end of the period, that was no longer true. Even Haydn's post-1780 piano trios can no longer be fully supported by a pianist alone.

Thanks, Gurn. This is an exciting theme, especially since Bach and during the entire Classical Period. For instance, the Bach's Violin Sonatas are truly trio sonatas with two parts for keyboard and the other for violin. It would be great to trail the gradual independence process of the keyboard: first a slave, then a citizen and finally a king (an absolute monarch in the case of piano music). 

[Antoine Marchand]

Just for the fun of it, here is Rivest/Breitman!
Q

It has been an interesting experience to compare some Rivest/Breitman and Kuijken/Devos... Two very different (and nice) versions indeed. 

[violinlands]

I only have one set but I love it. Lupu/Goldberg on Decca. 

Tremendous, I heard them when they broadcast the whole cycle live. I still have the tapes I made. A great combination. Another good version I think, was the old Parliphone recordings by Goldberg and Krauss.

[FideLeo]

Very fine version of the Palatine sonatas with the ethereal sound of tangent piano for the keyboard part.

[SonicMan46]

Well, I was not planning on obtaining another set of these works, love my HIP performances from the previous page of this thread - 

But, these older recordings (1969 & 72) w/ Henryk Szeryng & Ingrid Haebler were released recently in a 4-disc box (2CD sized jewel box) at a good price on the Amazon MP; believe these were one of the favs in the old vinyl days - also received a great review in the Mar-April issue of the American Record Guide (attached) - so took a chance!

Well, I've gone through the set twice; recorded sound for the era is superb (a few clicks & pops) w/o surface noise; both instruments are up front w/ some dominance by the pianist (believe a point of discussion previously) - Szeryng is exquisite on the violin - even did some 'back to back' comparisons w/ my HIP set, and these older performances stand up quite well.  For the price, a recommendation for these historic recordings from two superb performers -