Author Topic: The death of classical music  (Read 39829 times)

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Offline Grazioso

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2007, 03:27:58 AM »
instance, than it was when they were still performing and recording. With pop music now elevated to the status of serious music, there is little room left for classical.

That assumes pop music isn't "serious," when indeed for many of its creators and fans, it is. For them, there is musical and emotional substance to be enjoyed and discussed. And certainly, it enjoys a cultural prominence that does make it important, at least in the regard that it actually affects a broad range of people.

More complex forms of music, like classical and modern jazz, are understandably boutique tastes, fine art that demands some attention and study for fair appreciation. Just as most people will never bother with Shakespeare, most will never bother with classical music and therefore dismiss it out of ignorance. Many people are stupid, lazy, or uneducated and content--sometimes even proud--to remain so. Particularly in the supposedly egalitarian culture of the US, there often seems to be some suspicion towards anything elitist, and classical music certainly qualifies.

As for the press, they're a business: when they can find dollar signs in classical music, they'll turn their attention to it. Yet, part of the problem may be that a lot of people in the press share the sort of ignorance I mention above: how many editors and writers at your average newspaper know much--or anything--about classical music and could cover it even if they wanted to?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 03:31:37 AM by Grazioso »
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Offline Florestan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2007, 03:41:50 AM »
Many people are stupid, lazy, or uneducated and content--sometimes even proud--to remain so.

This is one of the greatest tragedies of our times.

While in the past uneducated people never denied the importance and value of education and culture (and many worked hard to achieve them, or to allow their children to achieve them) --- nowadays to be uneducated and uncultured has become a mark of honour, a sign that someone belongs to the people and not to some bourgeois or aristocratic elite.  I have strong opinions about whom to blame for this sad state of affairs but I wouldn't open a can of worms.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 03:44:19 AM by Florestan »
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Mozart

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2007, 03:54:17 AM »
Who cares? Why does it bother you that normal people don't listen to Bach or read Shakespeare? The only time it would bother me if is someone insulted my taste in music. If classical music gets labeled as elitist maybe its because its true. Its a higher form of art than "indie" or pop or any hip hop music. Now I just need to stop watching Hannah Montana....


*** Classical music is by no means dead! Just its composers are!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 03:56:32 AM by Mozart »

Mark

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2007, 03:57:36 AM »
Who cares? Why does it bother you that normal people don't listen to Bach or read Shakespeare? The only time it would bother me if is someone insulted my taste in music. If classical music gets labeled as elitist maybe its because its true. Its a higher form of art than "indie" or pop or any hip hop music. Now I just need to stop watching Hannah Montana....


*** Classical music is by no means dead! Just its composers are!

Are we not all 'normal', then?

Mozart

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #144 on: June 05, 2007, 04:00:21 AM »
Are we not all 'normal', then?

Of coarse not, being normal is the worst thing a person could be! Who wants to be normal?

Offline Florestan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #145 on: June 05, 2007, 04:00:48 AM »
Who cares? Why does it bother you that normal people don't listen to Bach or read Shakespeare?

Apres nous le deluge... right?  ;D
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

karlhenning

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #146 on: June 05, 2007, 04:01:22 AM »
. . . So is variety the best way to get people to listen to classical?  That's a main question here.

Exposure;  and not the impersonal exposure of radio -- that is, IMO, in the final analysis a secondary 'delivery system'.  If the classical world becomes, again, a part of the life of the community, so that people are up close and personal with it, all else follows.

As to variety, I think anyone here will attest that the classical music world itself contains multitudes.

karlhenning

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #147 on: June 05, 2007, 04:01:59 AM »
*** Classical music is by no means dead! Just its composers are!

Lies! Half-truths, anyway!  8)

Online Tsaraslondon

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #148 on: June 05, 2007, 05:27:29 AM »
This is one of the greatest tragedies of our times.

While in the past uneducated people never denied the importance and value of education and culture (and many worked hard to achieve them, or to allow their children to achieve them) --- nowadays to be uneducated and uncultured has become a mark of honour, a sign that someone belongs to the people and not to some bourgeois or aristocratic elite.  I have strong opinions about whom to blame for this sad state of affairs but I wouldn't open a can of worms.

Exactly. In a round about fashion, this is what I have been trying to point out. As I mentioned earlier, my grandfather, a self made man, set about giving himself the education he hadn't received, as a result of being made to leave school at the earliest possible opportunity. Nowadays, no  doubt, he'd be more likely to glory in his lack of education.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Mark

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #149 on: June 05, 2007, 05:31:05 AM »
It's not cool to be educated. And it's hard work. Auditioning for some lame reality 'talent' show is much easier, and comes with the faintest whiff of promise of achieving celebrity, cash ... and a few years in rehab. ;D

Online Tsaraslondon

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #150 on: June 05, 2007, 05:33:15 AM »
Who cares? Why does it bother you that normal people don't listen to Bach or read Shakespeare? The only time it would bother me if is someone insulted my taste in music. If classical music gets labeled as elitist maybe its because its true. Its a higher form of art than "indie" or pop or any hip hop music. Now I just need to stop watching Hannah Montana....


*** Classical music is by no means dead! Just its composers are!

I couldn't care less whether other (notice I didn't use the word normal) people listen to it or not. I do care that the arts are gradually being devalued in today's society. Why are so many people missing the point?
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Mark

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #151 on: June 05, 2007, 05:39:10 AM »
If you think the arts are being devalued at the moment in the UK, wait till the London 2012 Olympics gets nearer. What little money has been ringfenced thus far for the arts in this country will get sucked up into this international cash black hole. Then there'll be even fewer opportunities for those who seriously want to see the arts restored to their proper place to fund their initiatives.

Offline Novi

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #152 on: June 05, 2007, 05:43:00 AM »
Exactly. In a round about fashion, this is what I have been trying to point out. As I mentioned earlier, my grandfather, a self made man, set about giving himself the education he hadn't received, as a result of being made to leave school at the earliest possible opportunity. Nowadays, no  doubt, he'd be more likely to glory in his lack of education.

I also think there's a different understanding and expectation of education these days.

Tsaraslondon, your grandfather seems to have embraced learning as an end in itself, as something to enrich his life. These days, an education, particularly at the tertiary level, seems to be the means to a better job, a kickass salary, a highflying career. Knowledge as such isn't valued anymore. People ask, but what are you going to do with it? I'd like to say, who cares, but that's obviously not tenable these days. It's a pity that intellectual curiosity has become a luxury and in the long run, we'll be all the more impoverished for it.  
Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den der heimlich lauschet.

Offline Florestan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #153 on: June 05, 2007, 05:45:43 AM »
Slightly off-topic (or maybe not) --- this excellent quote from Simon Bolivar:

An ignorant people is the blind instrument of its own destruction.
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Steve

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #154 on: June 05, 2007, 06:38:11 AM »
I also think there's a different understanding and expectation of education these days.

Tsaraslondon, your grandfather seems to have embraced learning as an end in itself, as something to enrich his life. These days, an education, particularly at the tertiary level, seems to be the means to a better job, a kickass salary, a highflying career. Knowledge as such isn't valued anymore. People ask, but what are you going to do with it? I'd like to say, who cares, but that's obviously not tenable these days. It's a pity that intellectual curiosity has become a luxury and in the long run, we'll be all the more impoverished for it.  

I echo, with regret, the sentiment on this thread. So often, I am simply overwhelmed by the lack of interest in those acedemic fields without high-paying jobs. It seems education is more equitably distributed in society, it has lost much of its worth. Years ago, it was impossible to find a school here in the United States that didn't emphasize a love and respect for the classics of Western thought. Students were taught either Greek or Latin, and regardless of major, learned to appreciate the thinkers of the past. Now European History is taught entirely through Secondary Sources, and students are left to suffer. It is my position that a love of canonical literature and classical music are intertwined. Perhaps if we restored the cirriculum of our schools, interest in classical music would follow suit.

I had the benefit of attending a school who's cirriculum still emphasized classical literature and cluture, and haven't looked back since. Without a solid educational foundation of the development of Western society and thought, most classical music, I believe, is doomed to remain the hobby of a small minority.  :-[

Offline Florestan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #155 on: June 05, 2007, 06:41:15 AM »
It is my position that a love of canonical literature and classical music are intertwined.
Amen!

Without a solid educational foundation of the development of Western society and thought, most classical music, I believe, is doomed to remain the hobby of a small minority.  :-[
Word!
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Online Tsaraslondon

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #156 on: June 05, 2007, 07:09:05 AM »
I also think there's a different understanding and expectation of education these days.

Tsaraslondon, your grandfather seems to have embraced learning as an end in itself, as something to enrich his life. These days, an education, particularly at the tertiary level, seems to be the means to a better job, a kickass salary, a highflying career. Knowledge as such isn't valued anymore. People ask, but what are you going to do with it? I'd like to say, who cares, but that's obviously not tenable these days. It's a pity that intellectual curiosity has become a luxury and in the long run, we'll be all the more impoverished for it. 

You are right. And it is one of the great tragedies of modern life.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

greg

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #157 on: June 05, 2007, 08:56:42 AM »
Tsaraslondon, your grandfather seems to have embraced learning as an end in itself, as something to enrich his life. These days, an education, particularly at the tertiary level, seems to be the means to a better job, a kickass salary, a highflying career. Knowledge as such isn't valued anymore. People ask, but what are you going to do with it? I'd like to say, who cares, but that's obviously not tenable these days. It's a pity that intellectual curiosity has become a luxury and in the long run, we'll be all the more impoverished for it.  
yeah, that's actually a good point everyone makes. What are you going to do with classical music and classical literature, or anything else that the mainstream doesn't care about? Well, not much, really. It's actually not important at all unless you go on Jeopardy or know people with the same interests, otherwise knowing about this stuff will get you nowhere. But the only reason I think classical music is important is because I like it.  :-X

Steve

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #158 on: June 05, 2007, 09:09:33 AM »
yeah, that's actually a good point everyone makes. What are you going to do with classical music and classical literature, or anything else that the mainstream doesn't care about? Well, not much, really. It's actually not important at all unless you go on Jeopardy or know people with the same interests, otherwise knowing about this stuff will get you nowhere. But the only reason I think classical music is important is because I like it.  :-X

Is the opinion expressed in that last post your own? Or, were you describing the attitudes of the sort of people we've been bemoaning?

greg

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #159 on: June 05, 2007, 09:31:35 AM »
Is the opinion expressed in that last post your own? Or, were you describing the attitudes of the sort of people we've been bemoaning?
My own, pretty much. People have reason for not getting into stuff like classical music, maybe sometimes because they're just lazy, but it is true that if I stopped listening to it I would do no worse now than before- the only things I would lose are music that I enjoy and going on this forum.