Women Are Outperforming Men at University

[karlhenning]

In this sense, one might make the claim that Schumann is more of a genius than Brahms is. just saying...

Oh, I've run into one fellow more than happy to make such a claim! 

[DavidRoss]

Thanks, Dana, I hadn't seen this before:

I have pointed out before that Berthe Morissot was one of the principal impressionists and just as fine a painter as Renoir or Monet. Only the fact that she was a woman has prevented her becoming a household name.

Ridiculous.  Gender has nothing to do with it.  Renoir and Monet are not household names.  Morisot was a successful and critically respected painter in her own time, long before any of the men regarded as Impressionists were accepted.  So was her American contemporary, Mary Cassatt.  Both women have long been recognized as significant artists and collected by both museums and private collectors.  The only reason their names might not be as recognizable to the general public as Renoir or Monet is ignorance.

[Josquin des Prez]

I dunno. Something that requires real research and real synthesis. Kiddie-placemat brain teasers and 6th-grade story problems ain't that. I'm fond of the first isomorphism theorem. Deriving that from scratch would require both abstraction and problem solving of a sufficient order.

The article was specifically referring to university graduates, but even then the argument can be made that kiddie-placemat brain teasers and 6th-grade story problems are an accurate measure of ability when taking into account that the average 6th grader will find those tests challenging.

Getting to the real point, assuming arguendo that men outperform women in this regard by some objective measure, you only have data. You can formulate a hypothesis and make predictions, but, in the end, you're merely interpreting data.

If you think there is no actual correlation between the hypothesis and the data you are more then welcome to formulate your own theory. Just keep in mind research tests have demonstrated there are in fact differences in the way men and women process information, with men having a distinct advantage in terms of mathematical ability and spatial thinking.

It is clear that you have a concept of the matter that stretches beyond mere biology.

I believe science to be rather limited in scope and that certain truths can only be gleamed by ontological means. This does not mean there might not be a scientific explanation for ideas derived from personal observation. For instance, a recent study has confirmed that the brain patterns of homosexual males are close to those of heterosexual females, conforming what Otto Weininger had already gleamed more then a hundred years ago using purely ontological methods. Thus, it is wrong to say that my conception on the subject stretches beyond mere biology, only that my conclusions are not always the result of scientific observation.

What ideology? In the real world, the important question of gender has been settled.

Pure nonsense. Society has established a fictional status quo when dealing with gender by means of propaganda, brainwashing and governmental intervention. For every success story paraded by the media there are hundreds of thousands of similar cases of male achievement which constitute the basic underpinning of our economical and social structure. Our present illusion of equality is maintained by purely artificial means and it is eventually going to collapse under its own weight.

[PSmith08]

Pure nonsense. Society has established a fictional status quo when dealing with gender by means of propaganda, brainwashing and governmental intervention. For every success story paraded by the media there are hundreds of thousands of similar cases of male achievement which constitute the basic underpinning of our economical and social structure. Our present illusion of equality is maintained by purely artificial means and it is eventually going to collapse under its own weight.

Whether or not you like society's redefinition of one of its key constructs is ultimately irrelevant. There are all manner of settled issues that I don't particularly like. I choose to address myself to other issues.

That, as the man says, is how people grow up.

[Josquin des Prez]

I have pointed out before that Berthe Morissot was one of the principal impressionists and just as fine a painter as Renoir or Monet.

Absurd statement is absurd.

[Bulldog]

Absurd statement is absurd.

What does your wife think of your views concerning the capabilities of men and women?

[DavidRoss]

What does your wife think of your views concerning the capabilities of men and women?

He doesn't have a wife.  IIRC from a thread on the old forum, he's a 30 year-old who lives with his mother.

[Scarpia]

He doesn't have a wife.  IIRC from a thread on the old forum, he's a 30 year-old who lives with his mother.

How does his mother put up with him?

[Dr. Dread]

[Ten thumbs]

Not wanting to sidetrack the main thread, but I question the definition of "greatness is a subset of genius". Quite the contrary. Genius is almost always self-centered, whereas greatness is invariably demonstrated by an overwhelming desire to serve, coupled with an exceptional degree of abnegation.

For example: Napoleon was a genius, Abraham Lincoln was a great man. Provide your own examples :  the Arts is one domain in which there are more geniuses than great human beings. Politics has practically no geniuses, but quite a few greats. Science: probably 50/50. Business: many geniuses, few greats. Religion/Humanitarian causes: few geniuses, many greats.

From your analysis it is clear that greatness and genius are overlapping sets. I was merely countering the statement that genius is a subset of greatness, which is clearly false in the arts domain as you point out above.

[Ten thumbs]

Amy who?

Mel who?

I'm sorry, but when one speaks of ground-breaking works, I tend to think that had those works never been composed, the whole course of music history would have been altered. Hardly the case with your examples.

Let's face it: as honorable and great as those and other female composers might be, not a single one of them is on a par with the truly ground-breaking and history making male composers. Why is that I don't know and I won't speculate, but it's a fact.

Your thinking is totally warped, I'm afraid. Ground-breaking is merely the urge to break new ground. Whether or not anyone takes any notice is  often a matter of circumstance.

[Ten thumbs]

If the outperforming reported is causing concern perhaps some are hankering after the methods used in the past to keep females down. As I have mentioned Mélanie Bonis, she is a useful case in point: parents with no interest in music: child teaches herself the piano with active discouragement only given lessons at thirteen on recommendation of a friend: at seventeen admitted to Paris Conservatoire through influence of César-Franck (females not usually allowed): wins first prize in harmony (outperforming males): withdrawn by parents due to 'undesirable' alliance and married off to elderly industrialist with five sons and no interest in music. Phew! Thank goodness, the male race is saved again!

[Josquin des Prez]

If the outperforming reported is causing concern perhaps some are hankering after the methods used in the past to keep females down. As I have mentioned Mélanie Bonis, she is a useful case in point: parents with no interest in music: child teaches herself the piano with active discouragement only given lessons at thirteen on recommendation of a friend: at seventeen admitted to Paris Conservatoire through influence of César-Franck (females not usually allowed): wins first prize in harmony (outperforming males): withdrawn by parents due to 'undesirable' alliance and married off to elderly industrialist with five sons and no interest in music. Phew! Thank goodness, the male race is saved again!

And of course, the fact she never produced a single work of genius is all due the "oppression" she had to face.  

Opps, sorry, i forgot it's never wise to rely on logic when somebody is building an emotional argument.

[DavidRoss]

Oh, I've run into one fellow more than happy to make such a claim! 

He just did, twice, claiming not only that Schumann is better than all other Romantic composers, including Brahms, but that most critics and musicians agree.  I asked for sources, but so far he's just ridiculed me, as usual.  Sound familiar?

[Josquin des Prez]

Which Schumann are we talking about?

[Josquin des Prez]

What does your wife think of your views concerning the capabilities of men and women?

Are you seriously contending Morissot was the equal of either Renoir or Monet? This is insanity.

[DavidRoss]

Are you seriously contending Morissot was the equal of either Renoir or Monet? This is insanity.

To quote an earlier response on this thread:

Opps, sorry, i forgot it's never wise to rely on logic when somebody is building an emotional argument.

Whenever I'm feeling blue about my life I know I can always count on you to remind me that I have a lot to be grateful for.  So, pray tell, how many of Morisot, Renoir, and Monet's paintings have you seen, and what training and experience qualifies you as an expert in this field?

[Josquin des Prez]

So, pray tell, how many of Morisot, Renoir, and Monet's paintings have you seen, and what training and experience qualifies you as an expert in this field?

The same training and experience that makes me an expert in music i guess. Making an appeal to authority isn't going to get you anywhere.

[DavidRoss]

The same training and experience that makes me an expert in music i guess.

In other words: none.

Making an appeal to authority isn't going to get you anywhere.

I made no appeal to authority.  I asked what qualifies you to make such judgments.  You answered indirectly: nothing.  (As if we hadn't known.)

[DavidRoss]

Nice T-shirt.  Where can I get one like it?  I have a job interview and want to make a good impression.

(Psst.  Hey, Bruce...you been working out?)



Hey-y-y-y...I get it!  This is that circularly reflexive referential thread Elgarian was talking about, along with your "Double Cheeseburger" and "Fat Enders" threads!  Very clever, Dave!