Roy Harris (1898-1979)

[cilgwyn]

I like Harris and Schuman very much, have a lot of their music. That said, to discuss whether their music is great or not, is a very personal one. And that's my criteria, if I like it its good, if I like it very much its great, whether or not others agree with me. Life is so simple.

The above post says it all. A marvel of concision!
On a more positive note. My symphony by symphony attempt to analyse my Roy Harris marathon (as I call it) has helped me to sort out (in my own mind) why I like & even admire some of Roy Harris's music even though some (allot of) other people don't. Also,my posts might help some other people decide which symphonies they would like to try first,or even whether they're worth bothering about at all! As an added bonus,they may even provide some therapeutic relief to sufferers of chronic insomnia looking for a good nights sleep!!! If so,please email me & I might be able to make some money out of you're insomnia with a sideline in self help 'tapes' . Indeed,long before I joined this forum,as a member,it was Vandermolen & Dundonnell's posts about Charles Tournemire that were the tipping point for my buying every recording I could find of the fascinating symphonies of that very interesting and intriguing composer.

[Dundonnell]

Yes, and Jeffrey and I still collect our regular monthly commission from the Tournemire Estate

[Lethevich]

Thanks for your heroic reival of this thread, against all odds, cilgwyn (many like this languish in silence).

I don't know the composer well at all, but it's quite sad to read about the composer's apparent decline. The Youtube linked piece was surprisingly unlistenable. I am usually okay with composers re-treading ground, or with their abilities failing but still able to produce music of worth (Arnold). But Harris seems to have taken a different route - re-treading, AND seriously misjudged aesthetic choices? It is interesting the mentions that many of his later symphonies are bad, but also the sadness that Naxos aborted their cycle - am I missing a factor here, as that seems perhaps a wise choice now they recorded a few of the middle ones?

What are the go-to discs of his better pieces (other than the third symphony which I have a couple of)? I have copies of two Bay Cities discs (Piano Concerto/Toccata and Symphony for Band w/ Robert Russell Bennett) but they haven't made an impression yet.

[Dundonnell]

Roy Harris:    Symphony No.l (1933)*; Symphony No.5+; and Violin Concerto**:Gregory Fulkerson(violin) with the Louisville Orchestra(Jorge Mester*,Robert Whitney+ and
                             Lawrence Leighton Smith**)

Symphony No.2; and Morton Gould: Symphony No.3: Albany Symphony Orchestra(David Alan Miller)

Symphony No.3; and William Schuman: Symphony No.3: New York Philharmonic Orchestra(Leonard Bernstein)

Symphony No.3; and Symphony No.4 "Folksong Symphony"; Colorado Symphony Orchestra(Marin Alsop)

Symphony No.3*; and Aaron Copland: Concerto for Clarinet, Strings, Harp and Piano+; and Ballet "Appalachian Spring"**; and Charles Ives: "Central Park in the Dark"++: Robert
                 Plane(clarinet)+, the B.B.C.Symphony Orchestra (Grant Llewellyn* and Lawrence Foster++), the Ulster Orchestra (Thierry Fischer)** and the B.B.C. National Orchestra of
                 Wales(Eric Stern)+
      
Symphony No.4 "Folksong Symphony"*; and Paul Creston: Gregorian Chant for String Orchestra+: American Festival Orchestra(Vladimir Golschmann)* and the New York Chamber
                   Orchestra(Arthur Lief)+

Symphony No.5; Symphony No.6 "Gettysburg"' and "Acceleration" for orchestra:Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra(Marin Alsop)

Symphony No.6 "Gettysburg"; Samuel Barber: Capricorn Concerto,and Essay No.1 for Orchestra; and Aaron Copland: Saga of the Prairies: Pacific Symphony Orchestra(Keith Clark)

Symphony No.6; and Roy Harris: Symphony No.7: New Zealand Symphony Orchestra(Hugh Keelan)

Symphony No.6; and Roy Harris: Symphony No.7; and Walter Piston: Symphony No.4: Philadelphia Orchestra(Eugene Ormandy)

Symphony No.7; Symphony No.9; and "Epilogue to Profiles in Courage-J.F.K.":National Symphony Orchestra of the Ukraine(Theodore Kuchar)

Symphony No.8 ("San Francisco Symphony")*; Symphony No.9; and "Memories of a Child's Sunday": Alan Feinberg(piano)* and the Albany Symphony Orchestra(David Alan Miller)

Symphony No.11; and Douglas Moore: Symphony No.2; and Cecil Effinger:Little Symphony No.1; and Morton Gould: Cowboy Rhapsody: Sinfonia Varsovia(Ian Hobson)

Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra; and Pierre Max Dubois: Concerto Italien for Two Pianos and Orchestra; and Arthur Benjamin: North American Square Dance
         Suite for Two Pianos and Orchestra: Joshua Pierce(piano), Dorothy Jonas(piano) and the Slovak Radio Symphony Orchestra(Kirk Trevor)
(William Schuman) Symphony No.4;and Prayer in Time of War; John Becker:Symphonia Brevis(Symphony No.3); and Roy Harris:"When Johnny Comes Marching Home"(An American
                             Overture); Epilogues to Profiles in Courage:JFK*: Louisville Orchestra(Jorge Mester and Robert Whitney*)

Please forgive my self-indulgence in listing all the Roy Harris cds in my collection

Of these, the ones I would recommend most highly would be the Louisville version of the (First) Symphony and No.5....if you can find it
Bernstein in No.3
Either Alsop or Golschmann in No.4
Either Ormandy or Clark(preferable, in my opinion) to Alsop in No.6
Either Ormandy or Kuchar in No.7
Miller in No.8
Either Miller or Kuchar in No.9

Cilgwyn has written at considerable length and very perceptively about these symphonies. Nos. 3, 5, 6 and 7 are indeed probably the best with Nos. 8 and 9 just behind in that order.

I haven't included the labels(I just copied and pasted from my own catalogue) but they shouldn't be hard to identify

[snyprrr]

What are the go-to discs of his better pieces (other than the third symphony which I have a couple of)? I have copies of two Bay Cities discs (Piano Concerto/Toccata and Symphony for Band w/ Robert Russell Bennett) but they haven't made an impression yet.

oo oo that's the one I want,... I mean, need

[cilgwyn]

Roy Harris:    Symphony No.l (1933)*; Symphony No.5+; and Violin Concerto**:Gregory Fulkerson(violin) with the Louisville Orchestra(Jorge Mester*,Robert Whitney+ and
                             Lawrence Leighton Smith**)

Symphony No.2; and Morton Gould: Symphony No.3: Albany Symphony Orchestra(David Alan Miller)

Symphony No.3; and William Schuman: Symphony No.3: New York Philharmonic Orchestra(Leonard Bernstein)

Symphony No.3; and Symphony No.4 "Folksong Symphony"; Colorado Symphony Orchestra(Marin Alsop)

Symphony No.3*; and Aaron Copland: Concerto for Clarinet, Strings, Harp and Piano+; and Ballet "Appalachian Spring"**; and Charles Ives: "Central Park in the Dark"++: Robert
                 Plane(clarinet)+, the B.B.C.Symphony Orchestra (Grant Llewellyn* and Lawrence Foster++), the Ulster Orchestra (Thierry Fischer)** and the B.B.C. National Orchestra of
                 Wales(Eric Stern)+
      
Symphony No.4 "Folksong Symphony"*; and Paul Creston: Gregorian Chant for String Orchestra+: American Festival Orchestra(Vladimir Golschmann)* and the New York Chamber
                   Orchestra(Arthur Lief)+

Symphony No.5; Symphony No.6 "Gettysburg"' and "Acceleration" for orchestra:Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra(Marin Alsop)

Symphony No.6 "Gettysburg"; Samuel Barber: Capricorn Concerto,and Essay No.1 for Orchestra; and Aaron Copland: Saga of the Prairies: Pacific Symphony Orchestra(Keith Clark)

Symphony No.6; and Roy Harris: Symphony No.7: New Zealand Symphony Orchestra(Hugh Keelan)

Symphony No.6; and Roy Harris: Symphony No.7; and Walter Piston: Symphony No.4: Philadelphia Orchestra(Eugene Ormandy)

Symphony No.7; Symphony No.9; and "Epilogue to Profiles in Courage-J.F.K.":National Symphony Orchestra of the Ukraine(Theodore Kuchar)

Symphony No.8 ("San Francisco Symphony")*; Symphony No.9; and "Memories of a Child's Sunday": Alan Feinberg(piano)* and the Albany Symphony Orchestra(David Alan Miller)

Symphony No.11; and Douglas Moore: Symphony No.2; and Cecil Effinger:Little Symphony No.1; and Morton Gould: Cowboy Rhapsody: Sinfonia Varsovia(Ian Hobson)

Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra; and Pierre Max Dubois: Concerto Italien for Two Pianos and Orchestra; and Arthur Benjamin: North American Square Dance
         Suite for Two Pianos and Orchestra: Joshua Pierce(piano), Dorothy Jonas(piano) and the Slovak Radio Symphony Orchestra(Kirk Trevor)
(William Schuman) Symphony No.4;and Prayer in Time of War; John Becker:Symphonia Brevis(Symphony No.3); and Roy Harris:"When Johnny Comes Marching Home"(An American
                             Overture); Epilogues to Profiles in Courage:JFK*: Louisville Orchestra(Jorge Mester and Robert Whitney*)

Please forgive my self-indulgence in listing all the Roy Harris cds in my collection

Of these, the ones I would recommend most highly would be the Louisville version of the (First) Symphony and No.5....if you can find it
Bernstein in No.3
Either Alsop or Golschmann in No.4
Either Ormandy or Clark(preferable, in my opinion) to Alsop in No.6
Either Ormandy or Kuchar in No.7
Miller in No.8
Either Miller or Kuchar in No.9

Cilgwyn has written at considerable length and very perceptively about these symphonies. Nos. 3, 5, 6 and 7 are indeed probably the best with Nos. 8 and 9 just behind in that order.

I haven't included the labels(I just copied and pasted from my own catalogue) but they shouldn't be hard to identify

Buy the whole lot.........................................and then go to Tesco's!

Not sure about the 'heroic' bit. There are some people who might not thank me for reviving the Roy Harris great American Patriot Symphony thread!!!
Incidentally,I'm currently listening to some interesting 50's recordings of Copland & Grofe. Disregarding the actual music itself;the sound quality of the Felix Slatkin recordings of Grofe's Grand Canyon & Mississsippi Suites is,in my humble opinion, astonishing for 1954! I had to check the dates in the booklet;the recordings sound that good. Yet,Grofe's own recordings of his Death Valley Suite & Cloudburst from only two years later are flat,dry & constricted & in mono (or,in a word,'lousy!) I wonder if you've heard these recordings (I'd be amazed if you haven't! ) Annoyingly,the booklet doesn't tell you anything about the remastering processes involved. This also goes for some of the Everest & Mercury recordings which I have collected,recently. Astonishingly vivid recordings for their time.

Incidentally, another question for you Dundonnell,which I & possibly some other people are burning to ask (and don't take this the wrong way!),are there any recordings of classical music you HAVEN'T heard or DON'T own?!!!!

[Dundonnell]

In answer to your specific question directed to me

If we are talking about (mostly tonal ) orchestral music written after about 1890 then I would hope to have one version in my collection, (possibly two versions, and in a few cases three of the greatest symphonies). I also have the symphonies and concertos of the great 19th century masters.

I don't do chamber music though and no opera(with the exception of Wagner). The whole concept of having 10+ versions of a particular work is completely alien to my collecting practice. Breadth rather than depth

I have recently downloaded 239 new symphonies, not otherwise available commercially, including 71 British symphonies

[cilgwyn]

Indeed! Life and the wallet are just too short,aren't they? I gather Albion has a similar policy.
  There are some exceptions in my collection,however. For instance,I have allot of recordings of Elgar's Enigma Variations (sorry Mr Harris! We'll come back to you! ) & Holst's Planets in my collection,from the first few decades of the last century ie the various Boult recordings,Henry Wood,Hamilton Harty,Sargent,Monteux,etc & of course,the composers themselves. I collected these because of my interest in British music & the historical practice &  recording of these works. The Enigma Variations,in particular,whether you like it or not,has enormous historical importance (and,blah!blah! I don't need to tell you that! ). Also,first recordings of compositions,particularly by composers or people involved with them do interest me. But umpteen Mahler & Beethoven cycles are a little beyond my budget & I'm not sure if there is allot of point. On the other hand,going back to American music,I DO think the Bernstein  & Gould recordings of Copland's 'Billy the Kid & Rodeo beat Slatkins hands down & Coplands LSO recording of his third symphony gets more play time on my cd player (as does Mata's) than Bernsteins & it's interesting comparing them ie " Cor! Those gunshots better than Bernstein's!!!!" So,I can see the value in collecting multiple perspectives,but not if it means starving,having no heating in the middle of the winter & having  baliffs hammering on my front door!

PS: Maybe I could start a Ferde Grofe thread? There may be some people out there who really do have a burning desire to know which recordings have the best donkey bray or the loudest thunderclaps.....and,oh my g** Tomita did one! (Telarc has the real claps,I mean Thunder one's!) It could save them allot of money.Multiple recordings of Grofe's Grand Canyon suite could be detrimental to you're bank balance!

[Dundonnell]

Upfront

I have around 2800 cds in my collection plus a lot of LPs and around 266 reel-to-reel tapes with about six hours of music on each tape. I chose the versions of each piece of orchestral music based on the opinions of a variety of critics(few of whom are still active or indeed alive ) If there a piece of orchestral music written in my timeframe that is not too "advanced" for my tastes then I want it in my collection. Having 20+ versions of a Mahler symphony is not for me.

Simple as

[cilgwyn]

I like Mahler,but I feel the same about multiple collections,although I would quite like the Mahler 4 with Lucia Popp,but only because I'm a sucker for that sadly missed (gone before her 'time') singer. Also Neumann doing Mahler DOES sound interesting as it's an interesting enough perspective.................but then I won't be able to afford anything else! So,that's why I tend to agree with you here,with minor exceptions!
Of course I could make allot of friends on the Mahler thread!!!
  Having said that,if a really first rate,critically aclaimed,integrated Roy Harris cycle ever comes along,I will probably consider collecting,at least some,of it...............although,I may defer on No's 10,12 & that Bicentennial one!
  But then again,in the highly unlikely situation,that yet another one came along,I might desist!!!!!! Multiple Roy Harris cycles? The mind boggles & indeed the ambulance awaits!

The MGM soundtrack for the movie 'Kiss me Kate' is on the Sennheiser cordless headphones at the moment!

[cilgwyn]

By dinasman at 2011-12-16

After hours of non stop Roy Harris,Ferde Grofe sounded like Claude Debussy!

[cilgwyn]

Copland and Grofe are still on! I need a respite before I go back to Harris,just in case my enthusiasm WAS a mere rush of blood to the old head!
It'll be No 7,for starters,since this is the one that Harris believers usually rate as the next best after the 3rd. It has even been cited,by some commentators, as THE greater work.
Must get to the bottom of this one,Watson!

One thing I DO notice about Harris,which may prove in his favour. Like Henry Cowell & to a lesser extent,Robert Simpson,he does seem to get some people riled up eg: if I leave enthusiastic posts about Cyril Scott or Pizzetti,for example,no one could care less;but if I post anything even slightly complimentary about Cowell or Harris anyone who dislikes their music or had a negative response seems to want to let me know about it or why I shouldn't like what I'm hearing.

Englebert Humperdinck's another one! You wouldn't believe the hate emails I received after I said I thought 'Dornroschen' was a finer work than either Hansel und Gretel or Konigskinder! One of them informing me,in no uncertain terms,that Tom Jones is a better singer!

Holst's Cloud Messenger is on now AND Cilgwyn's dusted Lemon Sole,mixed vegetables & potatoes!!! I'll be eating the latter. Food for thought!
Harris Seven later!

[cilgwyn]

Yes, and Jeffrey and I still collect our regular monthly commission from the Tournemire Estate

I was just thinking. Judging by the endless stream of Tournemire cds,these days,I'm not sure the Tournemire estate are doing too well out of this arrangement!

[cilgwyn]

I just wondered where that Roy Harris thread had got to!

[snyprrr]

I just wondered where that Roy Harris thread had got to!

It had to take a nap after all that last week! It's the Roy Harris Thread after all!! sleepy...

[cilgwyn]

After ten Roy Harris symphonies in a row,much as I DO enjoy SOME of them,now and again,I think I needed a kip myself!

Meanwhile,back to the ever burgeoning Havergal Brian thread!!!!!

[Dundonnell]

I am afraid that I did warn you about the Bicentennial Symphony and I regret to say that Nos. 10 and 12 are not much better. No.10 "Abraham Lincoln" is scored for speaker, chorus, piano, brass and percussion and No.12 "Pere Marquette" for tenor, speaker and orchestra.

Listen to them by all means-if you can -and decide for yourselves but it seems to me that, with the exception of No.11, Harris went sadly completely off the boil towards the end of his life and that his later efforts do absolutely nothing for his reputation

I have recently given the Harris Symphonies Nos. 10 "Abraham Lincoln", 12 "Pere Marquette" and 13/14 "Bicentennial Symphony" another go.

The word is that Naxos has decided to abort their planned Harris symphonic cycle. If this is true I wonder whether it is because Marin Alsop or whoever has actually now studied these works. They really are dreadful

I write this in genuine deep sadness. I love several of the earlier Harris symphonies but, clearly, after No.9 his muse almost completely deserted him. No.11 is an exception; there is something to be said for both Nos. 9 and 11. But the 10th, 11th and 12th

No.10 and 12 are just plain boring, No.12 in particular is an interminable dirge. The Bicentennial-originally numbered No.14 out of superstition but now, sometimes, numbered as his 13th-must qualify as possibly the worst symphony ever written. It elevates banality to the very pinnacle of horror. Whether it sounded much better at its first (and last) fully professional performance by the National Symphony Orchestra of Washington I don't know.....but judging by the critics' reactions I have my doubts. The version I have heard-and the work can be heard if you are sufficient of a masochist on YouTube-is horrendously embarrassing

It occurs to me to wonder about composers who, frankly, 'lost it' towards the end of their lives but went on composing when they would have been better to have stopped.

This would be more of a 20th century issue, I imagine, given that composers generally died much younger in previous centuries.

We all know that Sibelius stopped composing or at least preserving his compositions, for his own reasons, more than 25 years before his death. If I had to instance some 20th century composers whose inspiration seems to have seriously waned at least ten years before their deaths......

Elgar
Bax
Walton

....spring to mind.

There are the sad cases of Aaron Copland and Sir Lennox Berkeley: both struck down by dementia

Are there others

[cilgwyn]

Indeed! It could have been embarassing for her! Having said that,I'm rather glad she stopped. I think the one's Kuchar did were much better. I found his interpretation of No 7 very stirring! I wish he could have done the others. Having said that,I changed my mind about Alsop's Fifth after a few listens. I think it's quite good,once she 'gets into it'. The opening seems hesitant & underpowered,but it WAS great to hear it in modern sound. I like Harris's Fifth. It's not ground breaking like the third,but it's so grand,so epic. It evokes all kinds of images of vast American landscapes & I hate to say this,but,unsuprisingly, 'Monument Valley',DOES pop up! But then again,what's wrong with that? I only wish Albany were more interested in doing some more recordings of the good Harris symphonies instead of the kind of stuff they keep churning out. Also Diamond,Mennin and Piston.What's wrong with them?!!!

Harris sounds egotistical & his partiotism was an embarassment,but I DO think a composer should be judged on his best work. Having said that,any record label that ever contemplates a complete cycle has got some very sweaty decision making to do! I really DON'T envy them! Even Don Gillis's worst symphonies aren't as bad as those!!!!

NB: I bet they DO get recorded by someone,eventually! Maybe someone like Dame Edna Everage could liven them up? Or Barack Obama,if he wants to get voted out!!!

[snyprrr]

They really are dreadful

I write this in genuine deep sadness. I

after No.9 his muse almost completely deserted him.

his 13th-must qualify as possibly the worst symphony ever written. It elevates banality to the very pinnacle of horror.

can be heard if you are sufficient of a masochist on YouTube-is horrendously embarrassing

The Plan 9 from Outer Space of Symphonies? bwah ha ha... yes, Yes, YES!!!

I feel your pain. However, now we have something other than Florence Foster Jenkins to clear the room, if needs be!

[The new erato]

I feel your pain. However, now we have something other than Florence Foster Jenkins to clear the room, if needs be!

Banality has never sent people packing.