Roy Harris (1898-1979)

[Karl Henning]

I am listening to the Albany cd of the Ormandy recordings and I think the sound quality is remarkably good for it's era.

Dialing down expectations, I appreciate that 

[cilgwyn]

I listened to Harris's Fifth Symphony today. This is the one I like best after (in order of preference) 6 & 7. I have quite liked this one ever since I picked the old RCA Gold Seal Lp out of the rack at,the now defunct,Haverfordwest library. The rhetoric is familiar,but it does have a lovely slow movement. The ancient old Louisville recording is the 'way to go',if you want to hear it (and don't know it!).

[vandermolen]

I listened to Harris's Fifth Symphony today. This is the one I like best after (in order of preference) 6 & 7. I have quite liked this one ever since I picked the old RCA Gold Seal Lp out of the rack at,the now defunct,Haverfordwest library. The rhetoric is familiar,but it does have a lovely slow movement. The ancient old Louisville recording is the 'way to go',if you want to hear it (and don't know it!).

This is one I like too. I also had the RCA Gold Seal LP. RCA were more adventurous in their releases then.

[Daverz]

This is one I like too. I also had the RCA Gold Seal LP. RCA were more adventurous in their releases then.

Here it is on ebay.

[vandermolen]

Here it is on ebay.

That's the one! That was a good old inexpensive series. I remember a Martinu release and Bax's Third Symphony ( LSO/Downes) which shamefully has never been released on CD. Also an interesting LP of music by Fricker.

[cilgwyn]

I'd forgotten it was coupled with Martinu's Fifth. In fact,I didn't even know I'd heard the Louisville performance! I can't think I would have borrowed the Lp without listening to that,as well! Perhaps it was the excitement of the Neumann Lp's with those wierd looking heads.....and I bought the Supraphon box set,with alas,no alien heads (though I've got the lovely Supraphon box set,now!).
RCA seriously need to reissue Tjeknavorian's sweeping,magisterial account of Khatchaturian's First,as well! Imho (as they say!) it easily,outclasses every other recording I have ever heard. I am lucky enough to have a superb Lp to cd'r transfer now,which I got from some kind music lover! Thank you very much! Anyone who doesn't think much of this symphony needs to hear this recording first,before they give up on it! As to Tjeknavorian's ASV effort. Forget about it! There is no comparison! (A pity Jarvi didn't record it for Chandos,by the way )

Anyway,this is a Roy Harris thread! A replacement for my faulty Albany cd of Harris's Sixth is in the post (from France!). After Harris,6,7,5 and 3 (if you like that one) I think vandermolen is right about the Eleventh being one of his better efforts. File under next best after the others mentioned. I think I think I might even prefer it to No 3. That said,No's 6,7 & 5 are the ones that work best for me. In fact,I think that if you stop worrying about the other ones,No's 6 and 7 are actually impressive symphonies,and No5,while not on the same level is pretty good. It's more pastoral than the others in tone,with a lovely,tender slow movement;which means it gets played here as often as 6 & 7,even if it isn't quite on their level of inspiration. It's when you start going through a whole wad of Harris symphonies,looking for something else on the same level;particularly No's 2,4,8 & 9 (and possibly the 'Symphony 1933) that the problems start to arise,and you start feeling like one of those tv viewers who watch Quincy for the first time and think that they've actually discovered an entertaining program. A couple of episodes later and the run-ins with Quincy's boss and the joke in the restaurant at the end,start to creep up on you!! Not that I'm saying Harris is like Quincy......but stick to 5-7 (and maybe 3 & 11,if you like them) and you might actually be one of those people who think that Roy Harris actually was a great American composer,or at least,get some enjoyment from them.

[Daverz]

Did someone say Quincy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Porter

American composer who wrote 2 symphonies.

I ordered the Whitney recording of the Harris 5th, but how is Alsop's?

[vandermolen]

I'd forgotten it was coupled with Martinu's Fifth. In fact,I didn't even know I'd heard the Louisville performance! I can't think I would have borrowed the Lp without listening to that,as well! Perhaps it was the excitement of the Neumann Lp's with those wierd looking heads.....and I bought the Supraphon box set,with alas,no alien heads (though I've got the lovely Supraphon box set,now!).
RCA seriously need to reissue Tjeknavorian's sweeping,magisterial account of Khatchaturian's First,as well! Imho (as they say!) it easily,outclasses every other recording I have ever heard. I am lucky enough to have a superb Lp to cd'r transfer now,which I got from some kind music lover! Thank you very much! Anyone who doesn't think much of this symphony needs to hear this recording first,before they give up on it! As to Tjeknavorian's ASV effort. Forget about it! There is no comparison! (A pity Jarvi didn't record it for Chandos,by the way )

Anyway,this is a Roy Harris thread! A replacement for my faulty Albany cd of Harris's Sixth is in the post (from France!). After Harris,6,7,5 and 3 (if you like that one) I think vandermolen is right about the Eleventh being one of his better efforts. File under next best after the others mentioned. I think I think I might even prefer it to No 3. That said,No's 6,7 & 5 are the ones that work best for me. In fact,I think that if you stop worrying about the other ones,No's 6 and 7 are actually impressive symphonies,and No5,while not on the same level is pretty good. It's more pastoral than the others in tone,with a lovely,tender slow movement;which means it gets played here as often as 6 & 7,even if it isn't quite on their level of inspiration. It's when you start going through a whole wad of Harris symphonies,looking for something else on the same level;particularly No's 2,4,8 & 9 (and possibly the 'Symphony 1933) that the problems start to arise,and you start feeling like one of those tv viewers who watch Quincy for the first time and think that they've actually discovered an entertaining program. A couple of episodes later and the run-ins with Quincy's boss and the joke in the restaurant at the end,start to creep up on you!! Not that I'm saying Harris is like Quincy......but stick to 5-7 (and maybe 3 & 11,if you like them) and you might actually be one of those people who think that Roy Harris actually was a great American composer,or at least,get some enjoyment from them.

You are so right about that RCA Tjeknavorian LP of Khachaturian's First Symphony! It is miles better than any other recording including the disappointing Tjecknavorian recording on ASV and the composer's own version. The Gauk is next best but the recording is old. RCA have a lot to answer for: where is Edward Downes's Bax Symphony 3, Morton Gould's Miaskovsky Symphony 21 (with a wonderful performance of Rimsky's 'Antar)? Linking Morton Gould with Roy Harris, I just discovered Morton Gould's fine 'Harvest' on Youtube, which seems to synthesise Harris and Copland:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pcoKsFBmk6c

[cilgwyn]

Thank you for the link,vandermolen. I used to have the Varese Sarabande Lp of Gould conducting Gould,with the LSO,when I was a youngster. A sonic spectacular,with an impressive black and yellow gatefold sleeve with (I think?) a striking Aztec face or motif,on the cover. I think it had one of those fun warnings about the sonics blowing up your speakers (if you weren't careful) which was,naturally,exciting stuff for a teenage. As to the music? A fantastic,really smoking performance of his Latin American Symphonette. They made it sound like a classic! Yet,as far as I can make out,it has never been reissued on cd;and like the Tjeknavorian Khatchaturian First,I have never heard another performance which made it sound anywhere as good,or convincing.
Which brings me back to Roy Harris again! Sadly,most Morton Gould I have heard never quite seems to live up to any initial promise....if at all! Nevertheless,I really do like his third symphony,which is coupled with Harris's Second Symphony on Albany. The recording is superb and for once Gould's ideas do seem consistent and do (to my ears) hang together. It's as near as you can get to an American Malcolm Arnold (who I know he has at times been refered to). Long serious stretches,but fusing popular and classical music,but unlike Arnold,with an American sound to the orchestration. It goes well with Harris's Second,but I think it's better! There is one great bit which reminds me a little of Arnold's Sixth....you know that jazzy bit....the music seems to turn into a kind of riff. I think it's fantastic! And the sound quality is Albany at it's best!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've been listening to Harris a bit. I figured a composer who could write a work as super-terrific as the 3rd Symphony probably deserves to be more than a 1-hit wonder.

Specifically, I've been listening to the Chorale for Organ and Brass (on a terrific Hyperion disc of American brass music), the Piano Quintet (thanks, YouTube), and the Violin Concerto (ditto).

These are all impressive works in their own way. The Chorale and the Quintet both have the same kind of long-term, evolutionary structure that the symphony has. It's a feeling of carefully calibrated increases and shifts in power, and relentless working of motifs. Reminds me of Holmboe somewhat. The Violin Concerto is a different animal, more mercurial and fantasy-like.

Again, these are all fine works, but they come with a feeling of toughness and density. It's like they lack a certain populist leavening, which I think helps in the symphony, and may contribute to their neglect. They do make me think however that Harris probably deserves at least a semi-revival.

[vandermolen]

I've been listening to Harris a bit. I figured a composer who could write a work as super-terrific as the 3rd Symphony probably deserves to be more than a 1-hit wonder.

Specifically, I've been listening to the Chorale for Organ and Brass (on a terrific Hyperion disc of American brass music), the Piano Quintet (thanks, YouTube), and the Violin Concerto (ditto).

These are all impressive works in their own way. The Chorale and the Quintet both have the same kind of long-term, evolutionary structure that the symphony has. It's a feeling of carefully calibrated increases and shifts in power, and relentless working of motifs. Reminds me of Holmboe somewhat. The Violin Concerto is a different animal, more mercurial and fantasy-like.

Again, these are all fine works, but they come with a feeling of toughness and density. It's like they lack a certain populist leavening, which I think helps in the symphony, and may contribute to their neglect. They do make me think however that Harris probably deserves at least a semi-revival.

I remember that the Piano Quintet was a fine work. 'Abraham Lincoln Walks at Midnight' is my other firm recommendation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ig8t40U-lE

[cilgwyn]

Symphony No 6 Keith Clark Albany (The Naxos recording is awful!)
Symphony No 7 Ormandy Albany (can be hard to get at a sensible price,but there is/was a free download of an old Lp on one of those vinyl blogs)
The Naxos recording by Kuchar is quite good,but lacks the cohesion and visceral excitement of the Ormandy;and it's coupled with No 9;one of his least successful symphonies (it meanders and you feel you've heard Harris do the same thing better before!)
I quite like No 5 in the old, Whitney recording,available on Albany. (The Naxos recording is passable,at best!)
His 'Memories of a Child's Sunday' is a lovely work. It has the humour and lightness of touch that his symphonies so often lack. It can be heard on Albany,coupled with his eighth and ninth symphonies.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

An interesting-looking recording of some chamber music, incl. the Piano 5tet. Anyone heard this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Harris-Chamber-Quintet-Strings-Quartet/dp/B000AA4JAC/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_10?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F93EAT7TEH6827PBW2G

[snyprrr]

An interesting-looking recording of some chamber music, incl. the Piano 5tet. Anyone heard this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Harris-Chamber-Quintet-Strings-Quartet/dp/B000AA4JAC/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_10?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F93EAT7TEH6827PBW2G

I mean... the saaamples sound nice,...

Are you coming fresh to the Harris? Hmmm... you should probably read this Thread. We've ALL been down this road, oy vey! Besides, you're going to run out of material quickly, so, just go with Syms. 3...5-7... then you have the disc with 8-9.... then 11,... No.1, and maybe somewhat No.2, may be of interest, BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T VENTURE BEYOND 11, FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!!!!!!

HARRIS RULE NO.6: Any of the smaller pieces that you can get on BayCities, or Delos, are all echt-Harris, but, they are piecemeal. Like the 'Chorale' you mentioned, they all usually have that thing that makes you want to return- and wish they were all on one disc!

HARRIS RULE NO.1: You're going to end up listening to No.3,... Bernstein,... period.

HARRIS RULE NO.4: Never, under any circumstances, listen to Symphony No.13!!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

HARRIS RULE NO.6: Any of the smaller pieces that you can get on BayCities, or Delos, are all echt-Harris, but, they are piecemeal. Like the 'Chorale' you mentioned, they all usually have that thing that makes you want to return- and wish they were all on one disc!

HARRIS RULE NO.1: You're going to end up listening to No.3,... Bernstein,... period.

HARRIS RULE NO.4: Never, under any circumstances, listen to Symphony No.13!!

I've had the Bernstein 3rd for ages. Also the Ormandy (LP only). Just started branching out.

I found this on the Classical.net site. This is why he reminds me of Holmboe, and maybe Simpson too:

The one-movement, cyclical symphony in particular appealed to him, as well as a development method called "autogenesis," whereby an idea undergoes a kind of continual variation or suggests new ideas (usually from a subordinate line), which the composer then varies in the same way. This results in long movements, cumulative in their power

Similar to Holmboe's "symphonic metamorphosis" concept.

BTW where are Harris Rules 2, 3 & 5?

[Rons_talking]

Symphony No 6 Keith Clark Albany (The Naxos recording is awful!)
Symphony No 7 Ormandy Albany (can be hard to get at a sensible price,but there is/was a free download of an old Lp on one of those vinyl blogs)
The Naxos recording by Kuchar is quite good,but lacks the cohesion and visceral excitement of the Ormandy;and it's coupled with No 9;one of his least successful symphonies (it meanders and you feel you've heard Harris do the same thing better before!)
I quite like No 5 in the old, Whitney recording,available on Albany. (The Naxos recording is passable,at best!)
His 'Memories of a Child's Sunday' is a lovely work. It has the humour and lightness of touch that his symphonies so often lack. It can be heard on Albany,coupled with his eighth and ninth symphonies.

I've recently discovered the Harris 6th. Or should I say re-discovered? I've only heard it on the Naxos recording but I'm impressed with the work as a whole. Prior to this point, I've preferred the 7th and 3rd symphonies (in that order). I just gave the Naxos 7th a listen and while  the fidelity is better I much prefer the Ormandy recording; there is so much more power and confidence to that performance.

I believe Harris is a composer best mixed in with other composers. If I binge on his symphonies or chamber works ( which are deserving of more performances and recordings), the very sound that is so uniquely Harris can start to bore me. But when I take his music the way I would in a concert, his music is so intensly melodic and tonally inventive, I will always enjoy it. Sometimes I find myself craving for that sound of Harris, the open spaces and modal harmonies make for, what I consider, the definitive American sound. Not that all his work is uniformly good, but Symphonies 1,3,5,6,7,9 are classic Harris. He's got a sound and all his work has it. I've got to listen to the Clark recording of the 6th and look for another 7th.

[vandermolen]

I've recently discovered the Harris 6th. Or should I say re-discovered? I've only heard it on the Naxos recording but I'm impressed with the work as a whole. Prior to this point, I've preferred the 7th and 3rd symphonies (in that order). I just gave the Naxos 7th a listen and while  the fidelity is better I much prefer the Ormandy recording; there is so much more power and confidence to that performance.

I believe Harris is a composer best mixed in with other composers. If I binge on his symphonies or chamber works ( which are deserving of more performances and recordings), the very sound that is so uniquely Harris can start to bore me. But when I take his music the way I would in a concert, his music is so intensly melodic and tonally inventive, I will always enjoy it. Sometimes I find myself craving for that sound of Harris, the open spaces and modal harmonies make for, what I consider, the definitive American sound. Not that all his work is uniformly good, but Symphonies 1,3,5,6,7,9 are classic Harris. He's got a sound and all his work has it. I've got to listen to the Clark recording of the 6th and look for another 7th.

The Harris 6th Symphony is very moving and the Clark recording is the best. For me it is forever associated with the death of my father as I discovered it around that time and found that it said something to me personally - at that moment. So, my opinion is very subjective.

[cilgwyn]

I mean... the saaamples sound nice,...

Are you coming fresh to the Harris? Hmmm... you should probably read this Thread. We've ALL been down this road, oy vey! Besides, you're going to run out of material quickly, so, just go with Syms. 3...5-7... then you have the disc with 8-9.... then 11,... No.1, and maybe somewhat No.2, may be of interest, BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T VENTURE BEYOND 11, FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!!!!!!

HARRIS RULE NO.6: Any of the smaller pieces that you can get on BayCities, or Delos, are all echt-Harris, but, they are piecemeal. Like the 'Chorale' you mentioned, they all usually have that thing that makes you want to return- and wish they were all on one disc!

HARRIS RULE NO.1: You're going to end up listening to No.3,... Bernstein,... period.

HARRIS RULE NO.4: Never, under any circumstances, listen to Symphony No.13!!

And boy,have I trodden that road!! Just look at some of my (numerous) posts.......but I'm sure you've all got better things to do............like,for instance;trying to find out whether Roy Harris composed anything as good as No 3?!!!

'Rons_talking'. If you like his Sixth,I really would urge you to acquire the Keith Clark recording,either secondhand or via a download. The Naxos comparison sounds lacklustre by comparison,and the horns (or whatver they are,I'm just a listener!) on the Keith Clark will have you sitting up! They really let rip! Even if you are someone who is dubious about the overall merits of this composer,the sound they make is really something!

Actually,I prefer No 6 to No3 and it is my most played Harris symphony.....so maybe,at least for some people,Harris did do something 'better' than No 3. Although,some people would point to No7;and now you've got me going again............!!


'Vandermolen'. I have the same reaction to Beethoven. My mother loved his music,particularly the 'pastoral'. Of course,Beethoven is an acknowledged great;but there is that emotional identification.

'Archaic Torso of Apollo'. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain that cd of his chamber music. I had the cd,but it eventually found it's way to the YMCA! I did rip a copy,however and I will have another listen when I feel in the right mood. I seem to recall that there were very few surprises there;just the usual Harris rhetoric,pared down,of course. Less bombast one might think;but strangely enough,I think,for once,that is the essential Harris quality I missed!

To be fair to Roy Harris. His ability,or inability,to come up with anything on a par with his third,has kept this thread going......in a way!! I mean,did he or didn't he?! And then there's always the " Roy Harris just bores the b***** socks off me....who cares?" type post",to help keep the controversy going!!???

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

'Archaic Torso of Apollo'. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain that cd of his chamber music. I had the cd,but it eventually found it's way to the YMCA! I did rip a copy,however and I will have another listen when I feel in the right mood. I seem to recall that there were very few surprises there;just the usual Harris rhetoric,pared down,of course. Less bombast one might think;but strangely enough,I think,for once,that is the essential Harris quality I missed!

You may be right. Maybe I should stick to the 3rd Symphony and that brass thing I got recently. Although some praise the 7th Sym. and the Violin Concerto as well: these seem to be solid works.

[snyprrr]

You may be right. Maybe I should stick to the 3rd Symphony and that brass thing I got recently. Although some praise the 7th Sym. and the Violin Concerto as well: these seem to be solid works.

Now, now,... remember what I said about the smaller pieces,... just listen to the piece that's on that Delos/William Schuman disc... with the Lincoln thing? Or, listen to the 'Cimarron' Overture?,... sorry, can't remember the titles,...I'M NOT EVEN SURE i KNOW WHERE THE hARRIS (opps) Works List is.

Hey,... if yer gonna,... then,... why not?

I'd even be willing to get that Albany disc of 8-9 again, just for kicks.




See? You're making me want to go get that Clark 6th,... and the 5th w/Violin Cto.,...oh shit, I just got the bug, .... off to Amazon...