Roy Harris (1898-1979)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Now, now,... remember what I said about the smaller pieces,...

What a coincidence, I was just looking at this piano music disc, which has gotten good reviews:

the Lincoln thing?

In regard to this...was Harris ruined because he got a swelled head and decided to consciously become his own concept of a (drumroll) "great American composer"?

You know: "Abe Lincoln Walks at Midnight," "George Washington Takes a Drink at Noon," "Thomas Jefferson Relaxes on the Porch in the Evening" - that kinda thing. I view with skepticism this type of public-spirited, ceremonial music.

[vandermolen]

What a coincidence, I was just looking at this piano music disc, which has gotten good reviews:



In regard to this...was Harris ruined because he got a swelled head and decided to consciously become his own concept of a (drumroll) "great American composer"?

You know: "Abe Lincoln Walks at Midnight," "George Washington Takes a Drink at Noon," "Thomas Jefferson Relaxes on the Porch in the Evening" - that kinda thing. I view with skepticism this type of public-spirited, ceremonial music.

And yet the 'Abe Lincoln walks at Midnight' is a fine, moving understated work. Having said that I saw Harris interviewed on TV once and did not especially warm to him, preferring Copland as an individual.

[Rons_talking]

And yet the 'Abe Lincoln walks at Midnight' is a fine, moving understated work. Having said that I saw Harris interviewed on TV once and did not especially warm to him, preferring Copland as an individual.

From what I've heard and read, Harris considered himself the true king of American music and was not very well liked by some. While we seem to expect and admire that arrogance from our athletes, it is, I suppose, unbecoming for composers to act in such a manner (unless you're a rock star).
Some of his keyboard music really comes alive. He seems to step out of character a bit (if you find the symphonies tiresome, which I don't...usually).

[snyprrr]

What a coincidence, I was just looking at this piano music disc, which has gotten good reviews:



In regard to this...was Harris ruined because he got a swelled head and decided to consciously become his own concept of a (drumroll) "great American composer"?

You know: "Abe Lincoln Walks at Midnight," "George Washington Takes a Drink at Noon," "Thomas Jefferson Relaxes on the Porch in the Evening" - that kinda thing. I view with skepticism this type of public-spirited, ceremonial music.

No no no=

I meant the Delos disc with Copland and Harris with James Earl Jones... the Harris piece is NOT vocal (nor even Presidential), just two smaller pieces that yet convey the cool idiom. Yea, no, I'm not sure I'm fond of all those other works...mmm...

[snyprrr]

AGAIN, MY WHOLE POST DELETED!!


Short version: I just got 8 & 9, and 11,... going the odd route,... will update...WHAT MADE ME DO THIS, i DON'T KNOW (whoops- out of all the choices I had- we'll see and report....

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.11

Starting with a darting, irrisssisssabbble piano, this work chalks up as Harris's most Abstract work, though his signature sound runs through the entirety. I found 8, 9, & 11 somewhat maddening in that they all bear the hallmarks of No.3, all without coming close to releasing The Big Melody: all is build-up and fragments, but without that big yearning motif that closes out No.3. Still, they all hint and beat around the bush, and it's this game that is the most fun to listen to here.

Out of the three, 11 has the most to offer the serious listener. As soon as one thinks Harris is treading water, he comes up with something different. I was struck as to how masterful this single movement construction is built, he really does know a thing or two, and so what if his trademark runs the show? Surely, his schtick is one of the best schticks going, so, eh, I'm gonna let him milk it. And yea, I'm still mad I don't get the Big Melody, but I get everything around it, and, in 11, that a lot of interesting sections. There's one with some low, snarling brass that sounded quite unique for Harris. I must also add that the recording is by far the best Harris recording on the market, making the proceedings that much more iauspicious- I'm tempted to call 11 a masterpiece- it's certainly constructed as such.


The disc with 8 & 9 didn't have such a brilliant, treble recording as I was expecting from Albany,- there seems to be some distance in the recording (not much at all), but, it does kind of add to the 'Lost Americana' that these scores are imbued with. Harris is just so unfailingly NAIVE, almostly laughably so, but it is this quality that haunts me here- it's like the ghost of square dancers on some Western prairie... I dunno, Harris's 'American' sound is so ubiquitous and saturated with meaning for anyone who ever thought highly of the Nation, that the Tragedy is so hidden in these later works, but comes out as a smiling face...


Oh, I'm just not in the writing mood, sorry............ I know, what am I doing in the Harris Thread anyway??.....

[snyprrr]

Finally,to paraphrase something they often say on the Havergal Brian thread........back to Harris!
Oh,and while I'm at it,here is my list of Roy Harris's best music. This is the result of my Harris marathon. I have placed each piece of music in order of merit ie the best (in my opinion) first,followed by second best & so on.........

THE BEST:

1) Symphony 3
2) Symphony 6
3) Symphony 7 (although,I'm tempted to put No 5 here!)
4) Symphony 5
5) Epilogue to Profiles in Courage: JFK
6) Violin Concerto (Although,I need to listen to it a bit more)

All the above are,in my opinion, imposing,grand,stirring,serene,beautiful & exciting in turn. I believe that any one of these works would be welcome additions to the concert hall repertory in the US & over here.

RUNNERS UP IN ORDER OF MERIT:

6) Memories of a child's Sunday
7) Symphony No 9
Symphony No 11 (Incidentally,I have no idea how that 'emoticon' got there!!!)
9) Symphony No 8


Not entirely sure about Symphony 1933,yet. I need to listen to it more. No's 8 & 11 have some intriguing sonorities & some of Roy Harris's most ear ticklingly original orchestration. I really DO like his use of the piano in these compositions. On a more negative level,they do seem more like extended orchestral tone poems than symphonies,but in their favour,interesting ones. Perhaps,in a way,Harris did actually succeed in doing something a little different here. To my mind,of the two, the eleventh works best.

THE WEAKEST:

10) Symphony No 2

I also rather enjoyed his Concerto for two Piano's & orchestra,especially that rollicking finale & his chamber music is worth listening to. As to 'Johnny Comes Marching home!' Well,that's fun & Harris cerainly creates some entertaining mileage out of it,fair play!

To sum up: Superficially,there is a certain sameness in approach,but the more I dig in to these symphonies & some of the other compositions I have listened to,the more individuality I find in these works & just a few of them are,in my humble opinion,very fine compositions indeed! At the same time,given a push,I would still place Copland,Piston,Schuman,Diamond,Mennin and Barber on a higher level because of their far wider range of emotion & creative expression (particularly Copland & Barber,there just IS no comparison!) But I have to admit (tut! tut!) I DO like some of this music quite allot! I also know that allot of people find his output,beyond No 3,mind numbingly boring!

OK,as Zebedee used to say  time for bed!

yep

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Symphony No.11

Starting with a darting, irrisssisssabbble piano, [interesting review snypped]

I YouTubed this and found the piano-noodling opening quite arresting.

The piece that actually interests me right now is the Violin Concerto, you heard that one?

[snyprrr]

I YouTubed this and found the piano-noodling opening quite arresting.

The piece that actually interests me right now is the Violin Concerto, you heard that one?

Lousiville, with 5, arriving tomorrow? Clark and 6 arriving Thurs.?

I'm giving 8 & 9 extended play this week. In the right mood, I see things I don't normally hear... Harris's naivete is quite bittersweet in this New America, he really belongs to the world of the film 'Giant',... just, a time that died a long time ago in the mind... in 8 & 9, this feeling takes on an almost ghostly comic tone, so overtly upbeat and jolly, but, as sheep being led to the slaughter. You baaarely hear it in the music, but you get tiny fragments of it, and it is up to you to keep up with the square dance. (what?)

[pjme]

The violinconcerto is - in my opinion- a great work. After the strange and almost unsettling opening bars - the music unfolds in glorious lyricism.
Well worth discovering!

P.

[Maestro267]

I read that Harris' 3rd Symphony was regarded as "one of the Great American Symphonies", so a few years ago I purchased it with interest (coupled with the 4th). It doesn't do a lot for me really, but there you go. The other well-known American composers can evoke America without you even having to go there, whether it's Copland's wide open plains or the big city, either with Gershwin's glamour or Bernstein's grittiness.

[cilgwyn]

Finally,to paraphrase something they often say on the Havergal Brian thread........back to Harris!
Oh,and while I'm at it,here is my list of Roy Harris's best music. This is the result of my Harris marathon. I have placed each piece of music in order of merit ie the best (in my opinion) first,followed by second best & so on.........

THE BEST:

1) Symphony 3
2) Symphony 6
3) Symphony 7 (although,I'm tempted to put No 5 here!)
4) Symphony 5
5) Epilogue to Profiles in Courage: JFK
6) Violin Concerto (Although,I need to listen to it a bit more)

All the above are,in my opinion, imposing,grand,stirring,serene,beautiful & exciting in turn. I believe that any one of these works would be welcome additions to the concert hall repertory in the US & over here.

RUNNERS UP IN ORDER OF MERIT:

6) Memories of a child's Sunday
7) Symphony No 9
Symphony No 11 (Incidentally,I have no idea how that 'emoticon' got there!!!)
9) Symphony No 8


Not entirely sure about Symphony 1933,yet. I need to listen to it more. No's 8 & 11 have some intriguing sonorities & some of Roy Harris's most ear ticklingly original orchestration. I really DO like his use of the piano in these compositions. On a more negative level,they do seem more like extended orchestral tone poems than symphonies,but in their favour,interesting ones. Perhaps,in a way,Harris did actually succeed in doing something a little different here. To my mind,of the two, the eleventh works best.

THE WEAKEST:

10) Symphony No 2

I also rather enjoyed his Concerto for two Piano's & orchestra,especially that rollicking finale & his chamber music is worth listening to. As to 'Johnny Comes Marching home!' Well,that's fun & Harris cerainly creates some entertaining mileage out of it,fair play!

To sum up: Superficially,there is a certain sameness in approach,but the more I dig in to these symphonies & some of the other compositions I have listened to,the more individuality I find in these works & just a few of them are,in my humble opinion,very fine compositions indeed! At the same time,given a push,I would still place Copland,Piston,Schuman,Diamond,Mennin and Barber on a higher level because of their far wider range of emotion & creative expression (particularly Copland & Barber,there just IS no comparison!) But I have to admit (tut! tut!) I DO like some of this music quite allot! I also know that allot of people find his output,beyond No 3,mind numbingly boring!

OK,as Zebedee used to say  time for bed!

I must say,I would now revise my 'best of list' slightly,as follows (in order of preference) :

1) Symphony no 6 (more varied in mood than No 3,and the third movement is Harris at his best. The Albany cd is THE recording to get....forget Alsop!)
2) Symphony No 7 (Ormandy is the recording to go for,he really gets the architecture of the piece)
3) Symphony No 5 (Harris at his least thumping-ly partiotic;I definitely prefer it to No 3 and the Louisville recording is the one to get....forget Alsop!)
4) Symphony No 3 (Bernstein's recording)
5) Symphony No 11 (I like that piano! A definite improvement after No's 9 & 10;see below!)
6) Symphony No 8   (Another symphony in his gentler mode. The piano that features in No 11 used here)

No 9 dropped from my 'best of' list! I've had to give up on it,I'm afraid. It comes over like No 7 without the structure and momentum. It starts off well enough;but then it just seems to meander all over the place. Still,Harris finally got his symphonic groove back (albeit briefly) for No 11!

The Albany cd of Ormany's Harris 7 is a 'must hear,if you want to hear this Symphony at it's best. It's an old mono recording,but it's good for it's age,and as a performance it outclasses all the rest. The cd is deleted,and not always exactly cheap (keep looking!). Someone has a transfer on one of those Vinyl blogs. I don't know if it's still up;but it was the last time I looked! The Kuchar is quite good,if you want modern sound. The Ormandy really has the feel of the piece though,and the couplings are great! (Just had a look at the current sellers price on Amazon UK! Whoa! Definitely a mortgage job!! Look for that Vinyl blog,I say!)

Alsop on Naxos has no feel for Harris. I thought her performances of the symphonies were lousy. She had no feel for the structure. No empathy! Kuchar was better. A pity he couldn't have done more.I haven't heard the Koch recording of No 7. Comments on that recording would be very welcome!!

For No 6! Avoid the Alsop performance like the blazes!!! The Keith Clark recording with the Pacific SO on Albany is THE performance to get!! Fairly cheap from sellers on Amazon Uk at the present time,I note!

No 5 needs a really good modern traversal. The old Louisville recording has oodles more atmosphere than Alsop's drab reading,despite it's age,it's the one to go for!

[vandermolen]

I read that Harris' 3rd Symphony was regarded as "one of the Great American Symphonies", so a few years ago I purchased it with interest (coupled with the 4th). It doesn't do a lot for me really, but there you go. The other well-known American composers can evoke America without you even having to go there, whether it's Copland's wide open plains or the big city, either with Gershwin's glamour or Bernstein's grittiness.

I rate the Third Symphony very highly, along with those by Copland, Diamond, Hanson and William Schuman.

[pjme]

Hi, indeed, Harris 3rd symphony remains a most impressive work. It packs a lot of power and emotion in a concise construction.
P;

[snyprrr]

No 9 dropped from my 'best of' list! I've had to give up on it,I'm afraid. It comes over like No 7 without the structure and momentum. It starts off well enough;but then it just seems to meander all over the place. Still,Harris finally got his symphonic groove back (albeit briefly) for No 11!

I just listened again. I translate the meandering to be The Great West- like the meandering of Pynchon's 'Mason & Dixon' Like a 'Fantasy Realist'? Wouldn't you say 9 might actually be his most Complex Symphony? Sure, the melodic material is some of the most "cut" I've heard- he never lets any melody get passed the pruning shesars, but that heightens the feel for me of being in an over-perfumed hothouse,- reminding me also of that Pekinpah film about the aging cowboys who get run over by a car.

Anyhow, for some reason I'e dedicated myself here to showing 9's best side,- even though, technically, I certainly have the same basic feeling as everyone else- frankly, I think we all have the exact same-ish list because we can all HEAR the exact same thing- in the exact same guises- and I believe with the revelation that Symphonies 10, 12, & 113 are utter crap (at least, no one I know could care less to hear them) the whole Harris thing has come into sharp focus, which is only highlighting the incandescent quality that, apparently, only he possessed- the critics be ignored. Everyone hears those harmonies and progressions and goes- yummy yummy!!

Some more pieces for your consideration:

Symphony for Military Band ($25 on Amazon)- this is the one I've most wanted to hear...

American Creed (on the James Earl Jones disc)

Fantasy, Toccata, & Choral?? (Hyperion, or other...)

[snyprrr]

The violinconcerto is - in my opinion- a great work. After the strange and almost unsettling opening bars - the music unfolds in glorious lyricism.
Well worth discovering!

P.

I YouTubed this and found the piano-noodling opening quite arresting.

The piece that actually interests me right now is the Violin Concerto, you heard that one?

Just getting through the Violin Concerto. The opening bars are like the State Fair, but then, the first two notes on the violin set a tone I find totally unique- it settles down a bit, but that opening really grabbed me. The whole work is quite chipper and American, quite a contrast to the more Abstract and darker Schuman. The solo part has some real fun sounding fiddle playing- why am I thinking Malipiero? And Fulkerson plays the part with much dedication and syrupy tone- slurp!

This is one of the most successful examples for me of "American Music" - I just can't handle so much of the typical Copland-sounding stuff- this has an authentic feel.




Symphony No.5

I wasn't all that taken with the opening movement, but, then, the middle slow movement reveals the true Harris, a great sounding slow bit from him. The finale was good enough to make the opener sound better. In all, I'd rate this alongside the 7th (maybe a notch lower?)- I have to get the 7th from storage- but the typical Harris naivete is on display quite openly in this war piece. Did Harris vote for Obama THE SECOND TIME? He seems like such a believing progressive naive dupe, sorry, love him, but I'd sure like to know his politics- he wasn't a commie like so-and-so? If not, he sure comes off as being the kind that politicians love to fool. oh well

Hopefully 6 arrives tomorrow...

[Scion7]

" Harris's melodies, in their contours, modality and flexibility of phrase structure, owe a debt to monophonic chant, Renaissance choral polyphony, Anglo-American folk music, African-American spirituals and early Protestant hymnody. He employed a 'polytonal' adaptation of the church modes, in which melodic phrases are often based on a combination of different modes built on the same tonic, this providing varying 'inflections' of scale degrees.
His harmonic idiom is based on the overtone series.    The earliest surviving compositions, however, at times suggest the influence of Franck and Skryabin, possibly owing to his studies in France. "



While "Did Harris vote for Obama THE SECOND TIME?" is pretty funny, you do know Harris was dead in 1979?   

[vandermolen]

" Harris's melodies, in their contours, modality and flexibility of phrase structure, owe a debt to monophonic chant, Renaissance choral polyphony, Anglo-American folk music, African-American spirituals and early Protestant hymnody. He employed a 'polytonal' adaptation of the church modes, in which melodic phrases are often based on a combination of different modes built on the same tonic, this providing varying 'inflections' of scale degrees.
His harmonic idiom is based on the overtone series.    The earliest surviving compositions, however, at times suggest the influence of Franck and Skryabin, possibly owing to his studies in France. "



While "Did Harris vote for Obama THE SECOND TIME?" is pretty funny, you do know Harris was dead in 1979?   

That was a great LP. My older brother had it when I was a teenager and it had a big influence on me. I like both works enormously and the performances of both on Bernstein's CBS LP has never been bettered. They were a great coupling in wonderful performances.

[Scion7]

Yeah, Bernstein is the perfect conductor for the 20th century American composers.  He'd death on just about anything else, tho' - his Beethoven series was awful.  Passable on Mahler.

[vandermolen]

Yeah, Bernstein is the perfect conductor for the 20th century American composers.  He'd death on just about anything else, tho' - his Beethoven series was awful.  Passable on Mahler.

What about Sibelius and Shostakovich?
I like his recording of Vaughan Williams's Symphony 4.