Last Soviet Leader Mikhail Gorbachev dies aged 91

Started by vandermolen, August 30, 2022, 02:17:02 PM

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vandermolen

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62732447

A key figure in the ending of the Cold War, I always liked him although, of course, he was much more popular in the West than in the Soviet Union. Although a pigmy by comparison, Boris Johnson's popularity in Ukraine compared with his (mostly) unpopularity in Britain reminded me of Gorbachev. Gorbachev had been ill and hospitalised for several years but I wonder what he thought about the current Russian leader. Above all Gorbachev was a man of peace and deserving of his Nobel Prize.
RIP
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

premont

Quote from: vandermolen on August 30, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Above all Gorbachev was a man of peace and deserving of his Nobel Prize.
RIP

Yes, RIP.
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relm1

awww.  RIP.  He was a good man.  A man of peace.

MusicTurner

#3
Quote from: vandermolen on August 30, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62732447

A key figure in the ending of the Cold War, I always liked him although, of course, he was much more popular in the West than in the Soviet Union. Although a pigmy by comparison, Boris Johnson's popularity in Ukraine compared with his (mostly) unpopularity in Britain reminded me of Gorbachev. Gorbachev had been ill and hospitalised for several years but I wonder what he thought about the current Russian leader. Above all Gorbachev was a man of peace and deserving of his Nobel Prize.
RIP

Gorbachev had a Russian father and a Ukrainian mother.
Here are a few sources on the matter:

" (he) ... backed Putin's view of Ukraine as a "brotherly nation" that should be in Russia's orbit. He warned against Western attempts to draw Ukraine into NATO but dismissed possibility of war as "absurd."
https://twitter.com/svetashko/status/1564778402263011328

But he "was upset by Putin's war in Ukraine and turn to authoritarianism, according to @aavst20551, editor of a liberal Moscow radio station that Russian authorities shut down in March ... ""We've all been orphaned. Just not everyone has realized it.""" (that is, the 'Echo Moscow' radio station)
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1564744659418730502

After decades with Putin and Putin's world-view, he is now generally very unpopular in Russia
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1564735572484169732
(His participation in a hellish Pizza Hut commercial is indeed rather unbearable: https://twitter.com/100latcileci/status/1564840289579196418).

And in light of the later war, he is at least currently not popular in Ukraine either; he's seen as a continuation of USSR authoritarian trends, such as in his somewhat more violent reaction to Baltic independence, and being in charge of the cover-up of the Chernobyl radioactive fall-out, where 100,000 children were ordered to parade in Kyiv during the catastrophe, plus he was supporting the annexation of Crimea in 2014.

But I agree though, that in a wider sense, he must be lauded for generally avoiding violence, not to say wars, during the demise of the USSR.

vandermolen

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 30, 2022, 08:57:56 PM
Gorbachev had a Russian father and a Ukrainian mother.
Here are a few sources on the matter:

" (he) ... backed Putin's view of Ukraine as a "brotherly nation" that should be in Russia's orbit. He warned against Western attempts to draw Ukraine into NATO but dismissed possibility of war as "absurd."
https://twitter.com/svetashko/status/1564778402263011328

But he "was upset by Putin's war in Ukraine and turn to authoritarianism, according to @aavst20551, editor of a liberal Moscow radio station that Russian authorities shut down in March ... ""We've all been orphaned. Just not everyone has realized it.""" (that is, the 'Echo Moscow' radio station)
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1564744659418730502

After decades with Putin and Putin's world-view, he is now generally very unpopular in Russia
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1564735572484169732
(His participation in a hellish Pizza Hut commercial is indeed rather unbearable: https://twitter.com/100latcileci/status/1564840289579196418).

And in light of the later war, he is at least currently not popular in Ukraine either; he's seen as a continuation of USSR authoritarian trends, such as in his somewhat more violent reaction to Baltic independence, and being in charge of the cover-up of the Chernobyl radioactive fall-out, where 100,000 children were ordered to parade in Kyiv during the catastrophe, plus he was supporting the annexation of Crimea in 2014.

But I agree though, that in a wider sense, he must be lauded for generally avoiding violence, not to say wars, during the demise of the USSR.
Interesting - I wasn't aware of the Ukrainian mother. Thanks.
PS Think I'll give the Pizza Hut commercial a miss!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

71 dB

The better leader of our giant neighbour. Somebody who actually deserved to be a leader. RIP.

Isn't it curious how he didn't "age" during the last 40 years? He only became different looking, not so much older looking. He looked 60 years old for the last 40 years of his life.  :P
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vandermolen

Quote from: 71 dB on August 31, 2022, 02:11:40 AM
The better leader of our giant neighbour. Somebody who actually deserved to be a leader. RIP.

Isn't it curious how he didn't "age" during the last 40 years? He only became different looking, not so much older looking. He looked 60 years old for the last 40 years of his life.  :P
Very true!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Todd

I doubt Afghans or Lithuanians view Gorbachev as a man of peace, but maybe.  In general, a man lucky/unlucky enough to be in charge of an empire when it dies will be viewed more favorably than his predecessors, at least by those who gained, but it should not be forgotten that he was an emperor of a horrible and oppressive regime.  At least he got that Pizza Hut gig for his troubles.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

relm1

Quote from: Todd on August 31, 2022, 04:27:22 AM
I doubt Afghans or Lithuanians view Gorbachev as a man of peace, but maybe.  In general, a man lucky/unlucky enough to be in charge of an empire when it dies will be viewed more favorably than his predecessors, at least by those who gained, but it should not be forgotten that he was an emperor of a horrible and oppressive regime.  At least he got that Pizza Hut gig for his troubles.

Then remind them the Soviet Afghan war began in 1979 and Gorbachev became Prime Minister six years later in 1985, and began withdrawing troops in 1987.

Todd

Quote from: relm1 on August 31, 2022, 05:52:03 AM
Then remind them the Soviet Afghan war began in 1979 and Gorbachev became Prime Minister six years later in 1985, and began withdrawing troops in 1987.

I am certain Afghans who lived through the war know the history of the war.  Gorbachev was directly responsible for four years of war and the slaughter of civilians that came with it.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Spotted Horses

In some ways he was naive. The Soviet Union was a democracy on paper, but a sham democracy. You could only vote for the candidate that the Communist Party selected for you to vote for. Gorbachev believed that he could convert it into something like a real democracy and that it would hold. The decisive act was to make it voluntary for the various republics to remain in the Soviet Union. He didn't understand that the population accepted the Soviet Union just because they thought there was no escape from it. He broke the old system but could not implement what would replace it, and the result has been disaster for many.

I remember speaking about Gorbachev with a Russian colleague not long after the Soviet Union broke, and his opinion was that Gorbachev's purpose was to destroy. Once he accomplished that he was of no use.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

vandermolen

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Karl Henning

The author himself discloses that he is not A Russia Expert:

Maybe you can come up with an example of an autocratic leader who acted as wisely and selflessly. I can't. And I certainly can't think of one who was more consequential—whose wisdom saved more lives and contributed more to human flourishing.

The Accidental Great Man
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Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

I was rather surprised to see only scarce amount of news on his death.

vandermolen

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2022, 08:45:54 AM
I was rather surprised to see only scarce amount of news on his death.
Quite a lot of coverage over here Manabu.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2022, 11:49:51 AM
Quite a lot of coverage over here Manabu.

That's great though I tend to like Yeltsin more. Gorbachev had a strong bond with Lady Thatcher!

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2022, 01:14:53 PM
That's great though I tend to like Yeltsin more. Gorbachev had a strong bond with Lady Thatcher!

Yeltsin was president when the FSB executed the "apartment bombings," killing hundreds of Russians, to justify the second Chechen war. That is what brought Putin to power, who's first act as head of state was to end all corruption investigations of Yeltsin. He was corrupt and a murderer of his own citizens. He set Russia on the course it is on.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Irons

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2022, 01:14:53 PM
That's great though I tend to like Yeltsin more. Gorbachev had a strong bond with Lady Thatcher!

He did. Thatcher famously said "a man I can do business with". A great pity for us all that nobody can do business with Putin. 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

There's a rather touching video of the BBC Russia Correspondent, Steve Rosenberg accompanying Gorbachev on the piano;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-21710750
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).