Johann Baptiste Vanhal

[SonicMan46]

Well, time to get this thread back on track, esp. since I've just received an excellent disc of his Piano Quintets, described later:

Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739-1813), born in Bohemia and trained early by local muscians; because of his excellent violin playing he was taken to Vienna in the early 1760s and given lessons by Dittersdorf; he eventually was well accepted into Viennese society as a performer, composer, and conductor; as Poju stated in a post, he was certainly one of the early muscians to make a comfortable living without the need of royal patronage.  Another 'claim to fame' is that he was often a member of the probably the most famous Quartet of the Era, i.e. often playing w/ Mozart, Haydn, & Dittersdorf - BOY, can you imagine just being there! 

In the old forum, Gurn started a Vanhal Thread, which just went for a few pages (I was there along w/ others); not too many recommendations made but a short bio given; for those interested, check out the bios on Wiki and on Naxos - despite his obscurity now, he was a well known & respected 'all around' musician in Vienna at the height of its classical glory!

Vanhal was a prolific composer - just a short quote from the Wiki article 'and attributed to him are 100 quartets, at least 73 symphonies, 95 sacred works, and a large number of instrumental and vocal works' - plenty of chamber music!  Personally, I now own just a half dozen discs of Vanhal's music:  Symphonies on Naxos & Chandos (more releases have been made on Naxos); Oboe Quartets on Helios w/ Sarah Francis; Double Bass Concertos on Hyperion (w/ Dittersdorf; not thrilled w/ this disc); and String Quartets w/ Kubin Quartet on Ceska - HEY, I'm just scratching the surface! 

My most recent Vanhal acquisition is shown below, i.e. Piano Quintets, Op. 12 w/ Miklos Spanyi on fortepiano & Authentic Quartet on period instruments; excellent review recently in the last issue of the American Record Guide - on first listen this is an outstanding production; Spanyi is superb on the fortepiano & the recorded sound well done.

If you are interested in music of this period, then this is a composer to explore seriously - 

[Lethevich]

Can anyone make head or tail of the Bryan numbers assigned to his symphonies? I realise that a thematic numbered catalogue of his works is impossible due to how many are only half-known, or barely explored, but the Bryan numbers do tend to be arcane in the extreme. Some letters prefixing a number are always reproduced upper-case, others always lower (implying that there is a distinction), then the numbers which folllow also don't really make themselves entirely clear as to what they represent. It makes Bach's catalogue seem a model of order...

[Gurn Blanston]

Can anyone make head or tail of the Bryan numbers assigned to his symphonies? I realise that a thematic numbered catalogue of his works is impossible due to how many are only half-known, or barely explored, but the Bryan numbers do tend to be arcane in the extreme. Some letters prefixing a number are always reproduced upper-case, others always lower (implying that there is a distinction), then the numbers which folllow also don't really make themselves entirely clear as to what they represent. It makes Bach's catalogue seem a model of order...

The chronology is still in doubt in my mind, Lethe, but the rest of it is pretty straightforward once you know the key.

Bryan C2  is the second symphony in C major

Bryan d5 is the 5th symphony in d minor

etc.   

I really don't think that chronology is taken into any sort of account, although I have no confirmation of that.

[Lethevich]

Ah, that is really neat - I couldn't see what was right in front of me I should've noticed due to the ones named "Bb" for b-flat...

Unsurprisingly I am listening to the symphonies at the moment. It is startling how Haydnesque many of the melodies are.

[karlhenning]

. . . It is startling how Haydnesque many of the melodies are.

That'll be Newman's next book.

[SonicMan46]

Well, Vanhal TTT! 

Just acquired the disc shown below of the composer's Cello Concertos performed by Peter Szabo & Sinfonietta Pannonica; Vanhal was a popular composer, teacher, & performer who spent most of his career in Vienna during the time of Mozart & Haydn - he was a part of the oft famous String Quartet in that city which featured Mozart, Haydn, Dittersdorf, and Vanhal, with the latter playing the cello!

As mentioned in a previous post of mine, would not being there be a wonderful experience!  So, these works are of particular interest, i.e. being cello works of Vanhal - short but quite positive review attached from the ARG (Mar-Apr 2011 issue) - quite well done and a nice complement to the other works available from this neglected classical composer - 

 

[PaulR]

Vanhal's Concerto for Double Bass, I think, is one of the best concertos for the bass currently out there.  In terms of structure, it's the typical classical style of composition.  First movement-Sonata form, 2nd movement-ABA, third-Rondo form.  It may be typical form wise, but when comparing it to the Dittersdorf concerto No. 2, the material, in my opinion, is better constructed in the Vanhal.  Although both have some issues with the tuning of the modern double bass, the Vanhal real does translate to the modern instrument well.

But not to be sidetracked into trying to argue who wrote the better concerto, or the better composer, I want to just talk about Vanhal's concerto.  I find it interesting there are different versions of the piece, not just different editions.  When trying to select which one to play, I first got the one in D Major (Bass Part in C), and after discussing it with my teacher, I decided to get the version in E Major (Bass Part in D).  I've been playing the one in E Major ever since.  Not because it's the one my teacher told me to play, but the one that I feel is more accurate to Vanhal's intentions. 

Comparing the one in D Major with the manuscript, there were differences in both versions.  The E Major one, most of the bass part is down an octave to what the manuscript says, and the D Major one has different runs in the solo part, and some strange register jumps.  Example, near the beginning of the first movement, there is a run of a G Major scale, 2 octaves in the D Major one.  In the E Major version, the same part is just a single octave A Major scale, but when the player reaches the top A, the player goes back down the octave to do the scale again.  The latter is found in the manuscript, while I believe with talking to my teacher the former was found in Sperger's (the person I believe Vanhal wrote the piece for) edition, and some editors kept some of Sperger's changes to the piece, which from discussing with my teacher, accounts for some of the differences in editions.

But regardless of which version, I really do believe it's one of the better concertos for the bass

[Leo K.]

Vanhal's Concerto for Double Bass, I think, is one of the best concertos for the bass currently out there.  In terms of structure, it's the typical classical style of composition.  First movement-Sonata form, 2nd movement-ABA, third-Rondo form.  It may be typical form wise, but when comparing it to the Dittersdorf concerto No. 2, the material, in my opinion, is better constructed in the Vanhal.  Although both have some issues with the tuning of the modern double bass, the Vanhal real does translate to the modern instrument well.

But not to be sidetracked into trying to argue who wrote the better concerto, or the better composer, I want to just talk about Vanhal's concerto.  I find it interesting there are different versions of the piece, not just different editions.  When trying to select which one to play, I first got the one in D Major (Bass Part in C), and after discussing it with my teacher, I decided to get the version in E Major (Bass Part in D).  I've been playing the one in E Major ever since.  Not because it's the one my teacher told me to play, but the one that I feel is more accurate to Vanhal's intentions. 

Comparing the one in D Major with the manuscript, there were differences in both versions.  The E Major one, most of the bass part is down an octave to what the manuscript says, and the D Major one has different runs in the solo part, and some strange register jumps.  Example, near the beginning of the first movement, there is a run of a G Major scale, 2 octaves in the D Major one.  In the E Major version, the same part is just a single octave A Major scale, but when the player reaches the top A, the player goes back down the octave to do the scale again.  The latter is found in the manuscript, while I believe with talking to my teacher the former was found in Sperger's (the person I believe Vanhal wrote the piece for) edition, and some editors kept some of Sperger's changes to the piece, which from discussing with my teacher, accounts for some of the differences in editions.

But regardless of which version, I really do believe it's one of the better concertos for the bass

Thank you for your interesting thoughts!

[mc ukrneal]

Here's a question - how do you pronounce his name? Does the hal sound like haul (like I haul garbage) or hal (as in 2001 name)?

[Fafner]

Here's a question - how do you pronounce his name? Does the hal sound like haul (like I haul garbage) or hal (as in 2001 name)?

Vaňhal - with hal as in 2001 and ň as in New York

[Karl Henning]

... and as in New York

... as pronounced in Brooklyn, e.g.?

[Fafner]

... as pronounced in Brooklyn, e.g.?

Heh. 

German pronunciation here.
Authentic Czech pronunciation here at 9:24

[Gurn Blanston]

Heh. 

German pronunciation here.
Authentic Czech pronunciation here at 9:24

Damn, those fellows were humming right along!  I came away with "WINE-hall" though... 

[mc ukrneal]

Heh. 

German pronunciation here.
Authentic Czech pronunciation here at 9:24

Thanks. I had not considered van vs von either, which is what the czech sounds a bit more like (the von sound I mean).

[Daverz]

Damn, those fellows were humming right along!  I came away with "WINE-hall" though... 

The Czech pronunciation was a bit too subtle for me to attempt to reproduce.  I'll have to make do with von-haul.

[SonicMan46]

The Czech pronunciation was a bit too subtle for me to attempt to reproduce.  I'll have to make do with von-haul.

Boy guys - a whole page of pronunciation lessons -   

NOW, would his name ever come up in a cocktail party conversation, i.e. except for one w/ GMG members?  ;

I usually thought that for us USA members that 'Van - Hal' (van like in a a driving van & hal like in the film 2001) would be fine w/ us - now Von-Haul would be OK w/ me - in respect for our wonderful European members, I'm sure the pronunciation is different, but the importance is to enjoy his music, SO any new recommendations? 

[mc ukrneal]

Boy guys - a whole page of pronunciation lessons -   

NOW, would his name ever come up in a cocktail party conversation, i.e. except for one w/ GMG members?  ;

I usually thought that for us USA members that 'Van - Hal' (van like in a a driving van & hal like in the film 2001) would be fine w/ us - now Von-Haul would be OK w/ me - in respect for our wonderful European members, I'm sure the pronunciation is different, but the importance is to enjoy his music, SO any new recommendations? 

Well, I just picked up volume one of the Naxos symphony series. I liked the Chandos and Das Alte Werk disc so much, I thought I would try the Naxos series. If I like it, I figure I have three more discs to explore.

[Opus106]

Having fun, y'all?

[Karl Henning]

Having fun, y'all?

Nice!

Next: Funyums With Vañhal....

[SonicMan46]

Well, due to reactivation of this thread and listening to the 3 discs of his symphonies in my collection, I decided to add the remaining 3 from the Naxos series; so now I own 6 discs of the Symphonies on JB Vanhal (shown @ the bottom for those who may be interested in exploring these works for the first time or expanding an existing collection).

BUT, how much overlap do I now have in this collection of nearly 2 dozen works?  Vanhal wrote over 70 known symphonies (and probably many more not known, published, or yet found?); these works have been categorized by Dr. Paul Bryan (hence the B lettering/numbers) in his PhD musicology dissertation  at the University of Michigan in 1956; he also published the book Johann Wanhal, Viennese Symphonist: His Life and His Musical Environment (Thematic Catalogues) in 1997, which is listed for $95 on Amazon - might look for a copy locally.

So, I quickly put together a spreadsheet on Google Drive and took a screen shot (shown immediately below) - the symphonies w/ their Bryan numbers are alphabetized in the first column; the 6 CDs that I own in the following columns w/ an asterisk indicating the presence of a work on a given disc - surprisingly, just 2 duplications.  Hope this might be of use other 'Vanhallites'!  Dave